Log in

View Full Version : Musa Formosana = Musa Basjoo?


mrbungalow
10-17-2006, 02:31 PM
Some people say Musa Formosana is musa basjoo.

Now, the englishmen at Kew(?) has given musa formosana species status.

Would this be correct? What then, are the differences between them?

Zac in NC
10-17-2006, 02:37 PM
I believe that it is Musa basjoo ssp or var formosana. Gabe can clarify, but I believe I have discussed this with him off-board in the past. It is from Taiwan I believe, as Formosana ( IE from Formosa, which is Taiwan) would lead me to believe. :2140:

Zac

PhilMarkey
10-17-2006, 05:42 PM
As you probably know Erlend I am the collector of all the commercially available Musa formosana seed currently available, as far as I've seen.
I collect the seed myself directly from habitat in Taiwan.
I'm not going to argue if it is a separate species or not. All I can say is that Musa formosana and Musa basjoo are very similar and are almost certainly of the same decent. Musa formosana generally grows much taller, the average height of fruiting plants in habitat is about 15 - 20 feet tall.
All the seed I'm supplying these days all come from the same area - high altitude central Taiwan. However, some collections that I made over 3 years ago came from 3 separate regions. One from high altitude northern Taiwan, another from very low altitude south Taiwan, and the one from high central Taiwan. None of these seeds were distributed, I grew all of them here in the nursery in Cornwall. I wanted to see if there were marked differences in cold-hardiness between the 3 and also Musa basjoo from Ryukyu Japan. As yet inconclusive.
Of the 3, the southern one produced the best germination rates, and was the tallest, but I've opted for the central one to supply the seed. I have now arranged a local collector there to supply the seed.
I won't be back in Taiwan until next year now, but I'll be looking for Musa Insularimontana on Lan yu island on my next Taiwan expedition.

Phil

Gabe15
10-17-2006, 10:53 PM
Last timed I checked it was reduced to a variety, as in Musa basjoo var. formosana. Musa insularimontana is very poorly known and is closely allied with Musa textilis.

PhilMarkey
10-18-2006, 03:12 AM
Interestingly Kew now have it as Musa formosana, but it is not an accepted name by Kew. They think it should be named Musa basjoo var. formosana (Warb.) S.S.Ying, Mem. Coll. Agric. Natl. Taiwan Univ. 25: 100 (1985).

mrbungalow
10-18-2006, 04:10 AM
The formosana seeds from Trebrown were excellent, and had a very good germination %. So far the small plants have 3-4 leaves. Not showing any special characteristics just yet. The small leaves are kind of glaucus above, very different from sikkimensis seedlings with shiny leaves and faster growth.

How many other official varieties of Musa Basjoo are there? There has been talk about "Sapporo" and "Shakalin" to the point of urban legend.
As I said earlier, the musa basjoos I have bought at garden centres this year have not impressed me in terms of growth, overall look, or vigour. Other species from seed look great.
I am very excited about these seed-grown formosona plants. I suspect some basjoos in european garden centres these days are tissue cultured over several generations. Maybe seed-grown plants will be more vigourous and look more healthy.

Erlend

barna
10-18-2006, 05:41 PM
Hello,

I have been watching for long but this is my first post.:o
I keep three different forms of M. basjoo that have distinctive characters

- Musa basjoo 'regular'
- Musa basjoo 'Shakalin' (lower and with wider leaves)
- Musa basjoo 'rubra' (with reddish steam) 58

I have also seen Musa 'Burmese Blue' mentioned as part of the basjoo complex, but I think Gabe has included it in the M. itinerans group

I ordered today some seeds of Musa formosana, :0488: let see how they look like

Zac in NC
10-18-2006, 05:54 PM
Barna, yes 'Burmese Blue' is Musa itinerans var guangdongensis.

Zac:woohoonaner:

mrbungalow
02-20-2007, 08:45 AM
An update on my formosana seedlings: Seems most of them share typical characteristics of regular m. basjoo, (Red midribs, "waves" on the surface of the leaves, wings on the petioles, and green stems) but var. formosana also has quite alot of powder under the leaves and on the stems. I can't remember seeing powder on regular musa basjoo. The stems are also quite thick, wich I don't see in seedlings of the same height. I can't wait to get these in the ground, they will be the majestys of the north if they are as cold hardy as regular basjoo.

They are not the fastest growers- quite average, and the biggest ones are now about a foot tall. For comparison, musa flaviflora, musa cheesmani, and musa balbisiana are all faster growers. :07:

Mark Hall
02-20-2007, 02:25 PM
Erland I was looking at some bananas on sunday at jungle gardens and peter showed me some plants that he bought as basjoo. He noticed that the leaves were twice as wide with a chalky white powder underneath also the ribbing on the leaf was narrower than the normal basjoo . do you think this would be the Sakhalin form or the formosana ? What ever they are I want one .

asacomm
02-20-2007, 06:53 PM
Hello Erlend & Mark,

As far as I know, all Basjoos produce no chalky white powder on anywhere
else and the colour of the buds are dark yellow insted of purple-red as other
musas. This is so far the easiest way of identifying of Basjoo and other
musas. This can be applied to Ryukyu Basjoos, Musa Hokkaidou, Musa
Sakhalin etc.
Am I wrong?

Stan

MediaHound
02-21-2007, 06:29 PM
http://www.bananas.org/wiki/Musa_basjoo

mrbungalow
02-22-2007, 01:12 AM
Stan, what is Musa Hokkaidou? Is it the same as Musa Basjoo "Sapporro"?

asacomm
02-22-2007, 04:29 AM
Erlend!

Yes, exactly it is the Musa Basjoo Sapporo which could be the cold-hardiest
of all Basjoos planted in Jpan. Hokaidou is the northest island where Musa
Basjoo Sapporo was found.
Musa Basjoo Sakhalin was found on Sakhalin island of Russia about 100Km
north to Hokaidou, so it is said it is a little bit hardier than Sapporo.

Stan

mrbungalow
02-22-2007, 08:36 AM
Stan, do many people on Hokkaidou island in Japan grow Musa Basjoo? If so, do they usually protect them, or do they let them die down to start new each year? I have seen that Sapporro can get really cold in the winter.

Erlend

asacomm
02-22-2007, 06:07 PM
Erlend!

So called Basjoo is planted wild everywhere in Japan and little people worries
about its overwintering. So only cold anxious people would protect them in
winter, but the most majority people leaves them as they overwinter them-
selves.
Basjoo is peacefully(??) overwintering even under the snow in Hokkaidou.

Stan

mrbungalow
02-25-2007, 11:28 AM
Erlend!

So called Basjoo is planted wild everywhere in Japan and little people worries
about its overwintering. So only cold anxious people would protect them in
winter, but the most majority people leaves them as they overwinter them-
selves.
Basjoo is peacefully(??) overwintering even under the snow in Hokkaidou.

Stan

But the stems die down then, right? The plant starts from the ground next spring?

Erlend

asacomm
02-25-2007, 06:14 PM
Erlend!

The answer is yes/or/no. It depends on the location where it is planted.
Where it is cold and dry in the northern parts of Japan, stem would die
down, and a new start begins next spring. but even though it is cold, where
it snows and lies and is rather wet, it could keep green due to the protection
by snow cover.
In my place of zone 9, pseudostem stands up with leaves and petioles dried
up.

Stan

mrbungalow
07-23-2007, 03:20 PM
Anyone have any good photos of formosana? Most of mine are still small, since they are in the greenhouse in pots. (Due to contractors tearing up the yard!)

bigdog
07-25-2007, 06:05 PM
Erlend, mine are still pretty small too, but I took a few pics today. This one is the largest. Nice rain we got today too!

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=4313&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=4313&ppuser=49)

Waxy pseudostem you talked about:

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=4311&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=4311&ppuser=49)

Leaf closeup:

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=4312&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=4312&ppuser=49)

mrbungalow
07-26-2007, 12:24 AM
Looks exactly like mine. They don't resemble the musa basjoo we know much, do they. Reminds me more of a "stout" itinerans type, wich is probably exactly what it is. By the way, most of the red on the midribs have faded here.

Compared to other species, this one seems to grow well in our coolish summer climate.

bigdog
12-17-2007, 06:47 PM
I took some pics today of both of my Musa formosana bananas. They don't really look much like Musa basjoo or M. itinerans, IMHO. The leaves are held at a very upright angle, like M. textilis.

The larger one:
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=7258&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7258&ppuser=49)

Slightly smaller plant:

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=7268&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7268&ppuser=49)

Pseudostem closeup. No petiole "wings" like M. basjoo has.

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=7266&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7266&ppuser=49)

Leaf closeup. Notice how the emerging leaf is still tucked inside the most recently unfurled leaf. Not a characteristic of M. basjoo. Looks nothing like a Musa itinerans either, or M. balbisiana.

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=7265&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7265&ppuser=49)

Any ideas?? I really am doubting whether or not this is the real Musa formosana.

griphuz
01-09-2009, 10:58 AM
Is there any clearance yet?
And where did you guys get the plants? I only know of sunshine seeds selling them, but someone told me that was NOT formosana,...
Kind regards,
Remko.

Basjoofriend
01-17-2009, 11:21 AM
Hi,

yes, I have Musa formosana seeds in Brazil. I could sent them to Helton to Frutas Raras, he will germinate them for me, I will try to breed with Musa formosana, e.g. Musa formosana x sikkimensis, balbisiana x formosana and more. I hope, the seed will germinate in Brazil.

Best wishes
Basjoofriend

bigdog
01-17-2009, 11:49 AM
The ones in my pictures came from sunshine-seeds.com, and are not Musa formosana. It is a still as yet, an undescribed species from Taiwan. Sunsine Seeds got the seeds from Phil Markey from Trebrown Nurseries (UK), who collected them himself in Taiwan.

Matt Turner
05-28-2009, 12:10 AM
Musa formosana is not the same as Musa basjoo. The easiest way to tell is to look at the seeds! Apparently some M. balbisiana var. liukiuensis seed was once sold as M. formosana seed, so in this photo I show seed from these three species, plus M. velutina.
The M. formosana seed comes from Phil Markey at Trebrown Nurseries. The rest I collected. I'm putting photos of the M. basjoo plants from which I collected this seed, so that you can check that they really are M. basjoo seed. I've already uploaded photos of M. balbisiana var. liukiuensis.
Chiu et al (2004) distinguished between M. formosana and M. basjoo in a number of ways, including seed shape, but did not make clear the great size difference!
(By the way, nobody else seems to put copyright marks on their photos. Is it unnecessary? It's irritating to do all the time!)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=17819&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=17819&limit=recent)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=17823 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=17822&limit=recent)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=17822 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=17821&limit=recent)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=17821 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=17820&limit=recent)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=17820 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=17819&limit=recent)

asacomm
05-28-2009, 04:13 AM
Hello Mathew,

Here is Stan=Myuchan of Shizuoka City and I didn't imagine that I meet you
here on this forum, but it is very nice to meet you here.

From my observation the distinctive points of differences between M. Basjoo
and other musas are:

1. The colour of the flower of Musa Basjoo is yellow/dark yellow, while other
musas' colour is red/purple red.
2 There are lots of white waxy powder on the pseudostems of other musas,
but there is absolutely no powder at all or negligible amount of powder on
the psetem of M.Basjoo.

As for the copyright of the individual photos, I honestly don't know if it is
necessary or not, but I have posted them without such declaration.

See you again also on the forum in Japan.

stan

Matt Turner
05-28-2009, 06:27 AM
Hi Stan,
Hisashiburi! Maybe this is a good place to ask you, does M. basjoo manage to fruit and set seed as far north as Shizuoka? I expect they manage to flower, but wouldn't the winter damage them too much for successful fruiting? And are basho plants quite common up there? Down here a fruiting banana that looks just like M. balbisiana is I think more common (at least along the coast). Inland I have seen more basho.
Matthew

saltydad
05-28-2009, 02:11 PM
Frank- my Cavendish leaves remain indented like that until they're larger.

asacomm
05-28-2009, 06:17 PM
Hi Matt,

Here in Shizuoka district in Japan it is quite common to observe Basjoos
planted in the garden and even wild on the fields, and if they flower in good
timing early in the spring and the pollination is duely performed, they can set
fruits in the autumn.

On the other hand, it was quite new for me to know that in your place in
Kyushu districft, M. Balbisiana is more common than Basjoo is.

Matt Turner
05-28-2009, 07:49 PM
Sorry, when I wrote, "Down here a fruiting banana that looks just like M. balbisiana is I think more common (at least along the coast)." I meant to say an eating banana (i.e. seedless). I'm not sure what variety it is. But it must have a lot of balbisiana in it, and may even be a seedless BB. I talked to one owner, and (as far as I could make out through his Kagoshima dialect!) he said that about fifty years ago they were planted by the local government along the national road, and at some point (this was the bit I didn't understand - maybe after a re-routing of the road?) they were freely? distributed to locals who wanted one.

Chironex
05-28-2009, 09:05 PM
Some people say Musa Formosana is musa basjoo.

Now, the englishmen at Kew(?) has given musa formosana species status.

Would this be correct? What then, are the differences between them?

Formosa us, it is the same - basjoo gotta make your own decisions.

(Sorry for the play on words, but I just couldn't hold back.)

Matt Turner
05-28-2009, 09:16 PM
Musa the time these threads have no humour, but that was Brilliant!:goteam:

asacomm
05-28-2009, 10:04 PM
Sorry, when I wrote, "Down here a fruiting banana that looks just like M. balbisiana is I think more common (at least along the coast)." I meant to say an eating banana (i.e. seedless). I'm not sure what variety it is. But it must have a lot of balbisiana in it, and may even be a seedless BB. I talked to one owner, and (as far as I could make out through his Kagoshima dialect!) he said that about fifty years ago they were planted by the local government along the national road, and at some point (this was the bit I didn't understand - maybe after a re-routing of the road?) they were freely? distributed to locals who wanted one.

Hi Matt,
It makes me more interested in what you let me know of the fact that a
fruiting(seedless eating)banana that looks just like M. Balbisiana is more
common down there in Kagoshima. If it is possible, can you show us its
photos of its blossoms and the fruits so that we may be able to guess what
variety is.
The musa must be very cold hardy as they stood here for fifty years.
I want to know what it is!

Stan

Alexander
07-03-2009, 05:35 PM
Musa basjoo Sakhalin is not from the Island Sakhalin, it comes from a Russian guy called Sakhalin. The origin of Musa basjoo is situated in Yunnan and Sichuan in China. It is the most northerly growing wild banana wich explaines its coldhardiness. Its is grown in many parts of China and from there it has been introduced in Japan several centuries ago. And from there it got to Europe in the 19e centuries. It has been described by von Siebold.

P.s. Saporro lays on Hokkaido.

Alexander

Tropicallvr
07-03-2009, 07:47 PM
I just got the recent introduction of Musa basjoo 'Formosiana', and the seeds are just like the ones in Matt's picture. The only thing that makes me wonder is that in the description of Musa formosiana it says the only difference between the two types is the color of the bracts, and it doesn't mention differences in seed size.
Musa basjoo var formosana (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~drc/musa_basjoo_var_formosana.htm)

Matt Turner
07-03-2009, 09:14 PM
There is a four-way confusion here between the species Musa basjoo, Musa itinerans, Musa formosana and Musa balbisiana.

David Constantine's site is usually very reliable, but he is obviously wrong to suggest that Musa formosana is similar to Musa basjoo. They are very different plants, not least being the huge difference in seed size and shape. I don't think M. basjoo's natural range extends anywhere near Taiwan either.

Musa formosana is however apparently very closely related to Musa itinerans, so much so that Hakkinen considers it to be the same species. I think he has given the name Musa itinerans var. itinerans to the Taiwanese plant. Others disagree and think Musa formosana should still stand as a separate, though closely related, species.

The final confusion comes from Musa balbisiana seed once being inadvertently sold as M. formosana seed. These plants arguably look similar (don't all bananas?), and both are found in Taiwan, but the difference in seed again makes differentiation conclusive.

Summary: Musa basjoo var. formosana is clearly an erroneous name, and Musa basjoo is most definitely not the same as Musa formosana. Musa balbisiana is also definitely not the same as Musa formosana (or M.basjoo, with which it too has been confused!). Whether Musa formosana is a distinct species, or whether it is a form of Musa itinerans, and if so whether it should really have a name such as Musa itinerans var. formosana rather than var. itinerans are matters still worth arguing about.

51st state
07-19-2009, 04:04 PM
Just to clarify here.

I think David Constantine may well have been trying to draw a distinction between regular M. Basjoo and M. Basjoo var. Formosana, (whether this is correct or not I couldn't say).

This is distinct from M. Formosana. I am somewhat surprised that this is suggested to be Itinerans var. itinerans, which with it's running suckers should be fairly distinctive.

also native to Taiwan is M. Balbisiana var. Liukiuensis (the seeds were originally erroneously sold as M. Formosana)

whether and which of the Itinerans is over there is unclear.

simple eh!:ha:

Matt Turner
07-19-2009, 05:43 PM
I think David Constantine may well have been trying to draw a distinction between regular M. Basjoo and M. Basjoo var. Formosana, (whether this is correct or not I couldn't say).

This is distinct from M. Formosana.

David Constantine was trying to draw a distinction between regular M. basjoo and M. basjoo var. formosana. But that is not distinct from M. formosana. Musa basjoo var. formosana is a synonym for Musa formosana. Your comment about the remote suckering of M. itinerans is one of the reasons that some people refuse to accept that M. formosana (= M.basjoo var. formosana) might itself be a synonym for Musa itinerans var. itinerans.

However you are right to suggest that M. balbisiana should be written as M. balbisiana var. liukiuensis (as it was further down this series of posts), when it refers to form on Taiwan and in the Ryukyus.

bigdog
07-19-2009, 06:52 PM
I'm pretty sure that Musa balbisiana var. liukiuensis was introduced to Taiwan, so it isn't native there. I have seen a paper about it.

Kev, Matt said that it might be considered to be M. itinerans var. formosana, if I read his post right. According to several printed sources, M. formosana has running rhizomes, like M. itinerans. However, according to Phil Markey, who collected the seeds, it does NOT! Maybe it is an intermediate runner, sort of like how M. basjoo can send out pups a good little ways when mature? I guess there is only one way to find out...germinate these seeds and grow them on!

Frank

jmoore
07-20-2009, 01:40 AM
I've got a large number germinating from Trebrown Nurseries, in fact way too many for my tiny garden to handle. So I'll let you know, I don't have anything to compare them with though.

51st state
07-21-2009, 01:24 PM
I'm trying, but no joy as yet, and with temps as low as they are here at present it's going to be a slow growing summer, Brrrr.. where's my sweatshirt

Jack Daw
07-21-2009, 01:43 PM
I'm trying, but no joy as yet, and with temps as low as they are here at present it's going to be a slow growing summer, Brrrr.. where's my sweatshirt
Looking at your temps I wonder, what difference there is between your summer and winter. ;) :D Just kidding, hope it will warm up for you real soon. ;)

Bob
07-21-2009, 01:47 PM
I'm trying, but no joy as yet, and with temps as low as they are here at present it's going to be a slow growing summer, Brrrr.. where's my sweatshirt

Wow 51st, is 16.3 C your high for the day? It's been a cool summer here and that's been the average low for us here all summer.

jmoore
07-21-2009, 01:50 PM
The summer has been pretty bad, looks like 3 bad summers in a row. :coldbanana::(

mrbungalow
10-08-2014, 07:14 AM
Update from Norway:

Musa Formosana flowers in Bergen... Read about it here. (Use google translate)
Eksotisk bananplante blomstrer | Universitetet i Bergen (http://www.uib.no/arboretet/81039/eksotisk-bananplante-blomstrer)

PhilMarkey
10-08-2014, 10:07 AM
This is interesting Erlend! Thank you!

However those larger plants could be Musa itinerans var. formosana, but I think not. Rather more like M. basjoo for me. Besides, the smaller picture to the side showing the purple bud is certainly not formosana, and I don't think that bud is from the same plant in the other picture. I also have to disagree with the text in that Musa itinerans var. formosana is a taller plant than M. basjoo.

I think they may have just used random pictures from different sources to make the article. Which is a shame, because I really would like to see the correct pictures.

Looking at the flower - I would guess Musa yunnanensis or Musa cheesmanii, or Musa balbisiana var. liukiuensis (http://www.trebrown.com/plant_info.php?species=Musa+balbisiana+var.+liukiuensis).

Mauro Gibo
10-08-2014, 06:53 PM
I'm pretty sure that Musa balbisiana var. liukiuensis was introduced to Taiwan, so it isn't native there. I have seen a paper about it.

Kev, Matt said that it might be considered to be M. itinerans var. formosana, if I read his post right. According to several printed sources, M. formosana has running rhizomes, like M. itinerans. However, according to Phil Markey, who collected the seeds, it does NOT! Maybe it is an intermediate runner, sort of like how M. basjoo can send out pups a good little ways when mature? I guess there is only one way to find out...germinate these seeds and grow them on!

Frank As far as I know Musa Basjoo grown in mainland Japan has never been used for fiber. The Japanese fiber banana is the Musa Balbisiana var. liukiuensis just like you said and it isn't cold resistant. Cheers!