View Full Version : Hardy palms for STL.
Raymond
01-27-2010, 01:16 PM
OK guys and gal's here is my question.....I live just west of St.Louis Mo
and am redoing my back yard...I have a pool and want it to look more tropical than it does now.
I want to put in a nice large palm that will overwinter here with little or no problems...also what other typs of plants other than bananas would you suggest?
Thanks,
Ray
:0517:
Abnshrek
01-27-2010, 01:23 PM
I'd look @ your lowest recorded temps over the last 15 years.. and set your criteria from that unless you plan on invasive measures of protection. You know christmas lights, heat-tapes, etc.. that would definately expand your list of plants. Banana's are simple enough to dry store or grow inside, but you would then expand your palm list to sabals, pindos and maybe mules.. :^)
Randy4ut
01-27-2010, 01:24 PM
Hey Raymond,
If you are planning on planting the hardy palm in the ground, then your choices are limited, I am sorry to say. Depending on how much effort you are willing to put forth in protecting it, about the only reliable choices you have with no protection, would be a needle palm, or sabal minors. If you are willing to protect a bit, then Trachycarpus fortunei would be your best bet for a trunking palm.
Here is a good site to give you some basic information on cold hardy palms:
Southeastern Palm Society (http://www.sepalms.org/)
Within the website there is a section that is a quick reference listing cold hardy palms from hardiest to least cold hardy.
SPS Hardy Palms: A Quick Reference (http://www.sepalms.org/Hardy%20Palms/SPS_Hardy_Palms_A_Quick_Reference.htm)
After checking these out, if you have any more questions, please feel free to ask away, or you are welcome to pm me and I will help in any way I can...
LilRaverBoi
01-27-2010, 01:31 PM
The three types of palms that I hear about on here are Washingtonia robusta and Trachycarpus fortuneii. These seem to be some of the most hardy palm varieties (to my knowledge, and to be honest, I'm not a huge palm guy). Those are the ones I would think might have a chance, but realize, even in warmer zones, these require quite a bit of protection during cold snaps.
Not sure if palms are really cut out for zone 6, but then again, bananas aren't either LOL. I'm sure you could grow just about any type as long as you leave it in a pot or dig it up every fall and bring it indoors (though not always feasible when they get big).
Hope that helps!
Abnshrek
01-27-2010, 01:50 PM
The three types of palms that I hear about on here are Washingtonia robusta and Trachycarpus fortuneii.
The Wash Robusta's will not make it one winter up there unless it the mildest winter in years. I think our out of the ordinary winter here killed 2 maybe 3 of mine. I'm getting some sabals :^) Sabal domingensis & Sabal uresana
LilRaverBoi
01-27-2010, 01:57 PM
The Wash Robusta's will not make it one winter up there unless it the mildest winter in years. I think our out of the ordinary winter here killed 2 maybe 3 of mine. I'm getting some sabals :^) Sabal domingensis & Sabal uresana
Thanks for the correction! As stated, I'm no huge palm guy and not an expert by any means. Someone did tell me at one point that WR were something to try here...so they must have been mistaken. Oh well...again, glad we got the correct info for the OP.
Randy4ut
01-27-2010, 01:58 PM
The Wash Robusta's will not make it one winter up there unless it the mildest winter in years. I think our out of the ordinary winter here killed 2 maybe 3 of mine. I'm getting some sabals :^) Sabal domingensis & Sabal uresana
Washy will make it, defoliated, but survive, but with TONS of protection. I believe the needles and minors are your best shot. PLEASE, just check out the links I submitted and touch base with me!!!
Abnshrek, hope you are willing to give the uresana plenty of drainage, or you will have a very difficult time with it. Will tolerate temps, but doesn't like that much moisture in colder climates... Domingensis, best of luck with it, and let me know how it does for ya!!!
Bananaman88
01-28-2010, 12:25 PM
I was going to suggest Needle Palm as well. I used to live in STL and worked at the botanical garden. I put some Majesty Palms out in some of my flower beds there one year but I can't recall us ever leaving any palms out through the winter.
LilRaverBoi
01-28-2010, 08:11 PM
Dang it Randy and Brent!!! Do you guys plan it out to always have nearly-identical avatars or does this just happen!? Looks like I'll be confusing you two again LOL.
Bananaman88
01-28-2010, 09:02 PM
I've never noticed us having avatars that looked similar before. But yes, to answer your question, Randy and I do hold a secret monthly meeting just to mess with people's minds! :)
Randy4ut
01-28-2010, 09:55 PM
I've never noticed us having avatars that looked similar before. But yes, to answer your question, Randy and I do hold a secret monthly meeting just to mess with people's minds! :)
Now that is a scary thought, meeting of the HALF minds!!! LOL Hang on, I am at work and cannot change my avatar. Will do it as soon as I get home later this evening. You think Brent and I have same avatar, well I bet he won't shortly!!!
BTW, Brent, what is yours? Mine is that ornamental hybrid I am trialing... Sure hope it comes back!!! Only mulch for protection. Think this winter will be a good test for it, what cha think?
LilRaverBoi
01-29-2010, 01:06 AM
Oh, you two totally had almost identical avatars before! I know cause I was confusing you two....commented on it and you both changed them to other things. Now you proceeded to change them back to similar things again!!! My mind can't distinguish such subtle changes!
Abnshrek
01-29-2010, 04:34 AM
Oh, you two totally had almost identical avatars before! I know cause I was confusing you two....commented on it and you both changed them to other things. Now you proceeded to change them back to similar things again!!! My mind can't distinguish such subtle changes!
I guess we have synchronized avatars here :^) next month it could be Mardi Gras :^)
I know they have a bunch of windmill palms so what have they all been X'd with?
Randy4ut
01-29-2010, 06:05 AM
Tried to change mine when I got home last night, but forgot how to change it to one in my picture gallery. Like they say, can't teach an old dog new tricks!!!
Bananaman88
01-29-2010, 01:57 PM
My avatar is my M. laterita, taken about 3 yrs. ago. That has been my avatar since I joined back in '07.
BonoboJoe
01-29-2010, 02:38 PM
I'd definitely try a Needle Palm. Of course some of the Trachycarpus and Sabal minor should work. I think T. wagerianus may be even more hardy that T. fortunei. A couple that I don't see listed that I've seen listed down to -5 degrees F are Serenoa repens and Nannorrhops ritchiana. Of course everyone list different hardiness for most palms, but both are cool and would be worth protecting. Besides they are fairly short, even here in Houston, so quite easy to cover.
Randy4ut
01-29-2010, 03:03 PM
My avatar is my M. laterita, taken about 3 yrs. ago. That has been my avatar since I joined back in '07.
Brent, I will definitely change mine then!!! You have had yours so long... Please help me remember how to change my avatar to one in my photo gallery!!! Us "old men" have to stick together!!! LOL
Randy4ut
01-29-2010, 03:09 PM
I'd definitely try a Needle Palm. Of course some of the Trachycarpus and Sabal minor should work. I think T. wagerianus may be even more hardy that T. fortunei. A couple that I don't see listed that I've seen listed down to -5 degrees F are Serenoa repens and Nannorrhops ritchiana. Of course everyone list different hardiness for most palms, but both are cool and would be worth protecting. Besides they are fairly short, even here in Houston, so quite easy to cover.
Not sure where you heard S.repens, or N. ritchiana were hardy to -5F, but I still have not had any luck with the repens. I do know repens does best in VERY well drained soil. I think both are actually a zone 8 plant, but there might be a Nannorrhops that is supposed to be slightly hardier than the standard green form. I still do not think either would be worth the effort in the St. Louis area, just my opinion....
BonoboJoe
01-29-2010, 03:32 PM
I was going on memory. I just looked them up in Betrock's Essential Guide to Palms and feel that's what I was remembering. I know plants act differently in different zones, but here Serenoa will do just as well with wet feet. I was in Atlanta for around 8 years and Pindos would rot in a heart beat, but I've seen them submerged here in Houston for a month and show close to no signs of damage.
jeffreyp
01-29-2010, 04:13 PM
I would suggest needle palms, sabal minor, trachycarpus fortunei, and possibly sabal palmetto.
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saltydad
01-29-2010, 05:00 PM
I would suggest needle palms, sabal minor, trachycarpus fortunei, and possibly sabal palmetto.
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Agree 100%
palmtree
01-29-2010, 06:43 PM
Cannas are fantastic plants. They have a canna called banana canna which is probably one of the tallest cannas, but there are others that will grow over 10 feet tall, some even flower. Elephant ears can also grow exceptionally tall, but some also stay small. Both cannas and elephant ears can be dug up in the fall since they are bulbs. Also Southern magnolias, crepe myrtles, camellias, swamp hibiscus, loquats, and yuccas will add a tropical feel. Some real tropical plants can be mixed with the hardy ones. You can just dig a hole to put a potted plant in and dig the potted plant back up. The closer the plants are the more tropical it looks.
Some other plants that look tropical but are hardy are many cactus (not really tropical looking, but the are interesting plants) and bamboo (probably 20 types that are hardy in your area). There are tons of other those.
Some palms are...
Sabal minors (also other sabals that are hardy), pindo palms (will need protection), needle palms, washingtonias (also with protection), windmill palms (also need some protection particuarly in their first winters, and there are other trachycaprus that can survive with protection), and medditeranean fan palms (must be in very good drainage and given protection). Date palms, bamboo palms, sago palms (really a cycad), and queen palms are not as hardy, but can survive if given serious protection when temps dip below 25F.
Randy4ut
01-29-2010, 09:59 PM
I was going on memory. I just looked them up in Betrock's Essential Guide to Palms and feel that's what I was remembering. I know plants act differently in different zones, but here Serenoa will do just as well with wet feet. I was in Atlanta for around 8 years and Pindos would rot in a heart beat, but I've seen them submerged here in Houston for a month and show close to no signs of damage.
Pindos rotting in Atlanta!? That must have been either a long time ago, or way past the outer belt loop in the far out 'burbs!!!
Two (http://exoten.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/hardy.cgi?function=2&index=6FFF0B81C1819668) of the nicest Butias in Atlanta area!
Randy4ut
01-29-2010, 10:02 PM
I would suggest needle palms, sabal minor, trachycarpus fortunei, and possibly sabal palmetto.
.
I agree with the first two, maybe three, but have a very hard time believing a palmetto would survive in St. Louis without serious protection! I am gonna try one again, but think I a pushing my limit a little to much but will give it another shot!!!! Just don't think soil temps in St. Louis will stay warm enough, long enough to support a palmetto and promote growth. May be able to keep one alive for a few years, but long term, just think it will decline quickly...
Bananaman88
01-29-2010, 11:30 PM
Brent, I will definitely change mine then!!! You have had yours so long... Please help me remember how to change my avatar to one in my photo gallery!!! Us "old men" have to stick together!!! LOL
Well, I'm not 100% sure, but try going up to the top of the page and clicking on "User CP" and then click on "Change Avatar" and see what that gets you. By the way, who are you calling "old"???
Abnshrek
01-29-2010, 11:39 PM
Well, I'm not 100% sure, but try going up to the top of the page and clicking on "User CP" and then click on "Change Avatar" and see what that gets you. By the way, who are you calling "old"???
Nobody is old.. everyone is 18 w/ many years of experience :^)
Bananaman88
01-31-2010, 10:17 AM
Nobody is old.. everyone is 18 w/ many years of experience :^)
tu:ha: I'm acutally 18x2!
banana123
01-31-2010, 10:59 AM
hii how can you that banana smileys?03
banana123
01-31-2010, 11:00 AM
http://C:\Users\fidan\AppData\Local\Temp\Temp22_hyve foto's.zip\21[1].gif
banana123
01-31-2010, 11:01 AM
http://C:\Users\fidan\AppData\Local\Temp\Temp22_hyve foto's.zip\57[1].gif
BonoboJoe
02-03-2010, 03:05 PM
I was at the zoo in Atlanta. We had a handful of Pindos that did alright, but they were in the perfect location. Here in Houston, we plant them wherever and they do great. We had also tried 4 Sabal palmetto at Zoo Atlanta and the last time I was there it appears they were all gone.
r3tic
02-03-2010, 03:14 PM
While I was in Washington DC, I saw a yucca rostrata covered in snow that looked very cool. I realize it's not a real palm tree but it is supposed to be zone 5 hardy. I'll be picking one up this year to grow in Philadelphia.
jeffreyp
02-03-2010, 03:38 PM
I agree with the first two, maybe three, but have a very hard time believing a palmetto would survive in St. Louis without serious protection! I am gonna try one again, but think I a pushing my limit a little to much but will give it another shot!!!! Just don't think soil temps in St. Louis will stay warm enough, long enough to support a palmetto and promote growth. May be able to keep one alive for a few years, but long term, just think it will decline quickly...
Randy,
A fellow plant enthusiast of mine has sabal palmetto growing in Rhode Island just outside of Providence. They are small seedlings but some especially cold winters they die back but come back in the summer. I would say try getting some seedlings and give them a try!
Sabal Palmetto Cabbage Palm Tree Live Plant 1 gallon - eBay (item 350243792514 end time Feb-19-10 17:21:01 PST) (http://cgi.ebay.com/Sabal-Palmetto-Cabbage-Palm-Tree-Live-Plant-1-gallon_W0QQitemZ350243792514QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_ 0?hash=item518c282682)
BLUE DWARF PALMETTO PALM / SABAL MINOR - 5 GAL. PLANT - eBay (item 190368569529 end time Feb-25-10 19:48:02 PST) (http://cgi.ebay.com/BLUE-DWARF-PALMETTO-PALM-SABAL-MINOR-5-GAL-PLANT_W0QQitemZ190368569529QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0 ?hash=item2c52d9d8b9)
Randy4ut
02-03-2010, 04:53 PM
I was at the zoo in Atlanta. We had a handful of Pindos that did alright, but they were in the perfect location. Here in Houston, we plant them wherever and they do great. We had also tried 4 Sabal palmetto at Zoo Atlanta and the last time I was there it appears they were all gone.
Here is another Butia that has avoided rot and is growing in 7a!
http://thumb10.webshots.net/t/20/21/6/53/99/2684653990049876650TqWLuK_th.jpg
Here is you a palmetto at same location that is doing rather well for being in ground for at least 10 years...
http://thumb10.webshots.net/s/thumb4/7/58/76/92375876iqgrQb_th.jpg
These are not my palms, but a good friend of mine up the road a bit from where I live!
If you would like, I would be more than happy to post hundreds of pictures of Sabal Palmettos growing very well all over the Atlanta area... Say the word!
Randy4ut
02-03-2010, 05:03 PM
Randy,
A fellow plant enthusiast of mine has sabal palmetto growing in Rhode Island just outside of Providence. They are small seedlings but some especially cold winters they die back but come back in the summer. I would say try getting some seedlings and give them a try!
Sabal Palmetto Cabbage Palm Tree Live Plant 1 gallon - eBay (item 350243792514 end time Feb-19-10 17:21:01 PST) (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?campid=5336119895&customid=Bananas.org&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2FSabal-Palmetto-Cabbage-Palm-Tree-Live-Plant-1-gallon_W0QQitemZ350243792514QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_ 0%3Fhash%3Ditem518c282682)
BLUE DWARF PALMETTO PALM / SABAL MINOR - 5 GAL. PLANT - eBay (item 190368569529 end time Feb-25-10 19:48:02 PST) (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?campid=5336119895&customid=Bananas.org&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2FBLUE-DWARF-PALMETTO-PALM-SABAL-MINOR-5-GAL-PLANT_W0QQitemZ190368569529QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0 %3Fhash%3Ditem2c52d9d8b9)
When you say small seedlings that die back but come back in summer, what do you mean by die back? Are you saying they completely die back? That is amazing that it comes back after dying back! I have plenty of minors and have tried a palmetto a few years back, but was not hurricane cut when I purchased it and so it did not make it. That was my fault for buying it in the first place. I plan on trying another one, hopefully this year. I still do not believe a palmetto would survive in St. Louis for any length of time, and will not until someone that lives in that area can prove me different. No disrespect to you in any way...
jeffreyp
02-03-2010, 07:51 PM
What I mean is the leaf straps would die back, get fried in severe winters but the bud would push out new leaf straps late spring early summer. I am sure they are still in the ground though they probably have never amounted to more than a few leaf straps because of the climate up there. But to be more clear, they have been in the ground 7-10 years now and were grown from seeds. Now for a st. Louis sabal to grow it would have to be in a good location and I would suggest growing them from a small 1 gallon size plant or seedling and give it a try...same for your location in TN...I suspect if they can be grown in virginia beach they stand a chance in a good location in Tennessee.
There are some pictures midway through this link:
Palm trees in Tennessee (3rd thread) - Tennessee Gardening Forum - GardenWeb (http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/tngard/msg012139218625.html)
Randy4ut
02-03-2010, 08:17 PM
What I mean is the leaf straps would die back, get fried in severe winters but the bud would push out new leaf straps late spring early summer. I am sure they are still in the ground though they probably have never amounted to more than a few leaf straps because of the climate up there. But to be more clear, they have been in the ground 7-10 years now and were grown from seeds. Now for a st. Louis sabal to grow it would have to be in a good location and I would suggest growing them from a small 1 gallon size plant or seedling and give it a try...same for your location in TN...I suspect if they can be grown in virginia beach they stand a chance in a good location in Tennessee.
There are some pictures midway through this link:
Palm trees in Tennessee (3rd thread) - Tennessee Gardening Forum - GardenWeb (http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/tngard/msg012139218625.html)
Funny you should link me to a thread of my friend Rob's pictures up on the Cumberland Plateau! He is a great guy and we have traded plants often. The other elderly gentleman, Charles Cole, lives about an hour north of where I was born in middle TN! I, personally, have not yet had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Cole in person, but we are planning on trying to go up to his place this spring and help him clean up his yard from the winter! He is getting on up in years and unable to get around as well as he used to. MR. COLE is THE grandfather of Palms in the TN area and known by all. He is a true pioneer when it comes to palms in TN.
As far as palmettos growing in Virginia Beach doing well and that means they should do well here in TN, I don't think that is a fair comparison! Virginia Beach has the ocean to help buffer the temps and that is why you will see nice palms as far north as at least Rehoboth Beach, DE!!!
For me, the next Sabal palmetto I purchase will be a HC palmetto that has been potted up to let roots regrow and about 4-6' of clear trunk...
jeffreyp
02-03-2010, 08:44 PM
Randy, I understand the differences in climate, that's why I stated "in a good location". On another note, some people have no problem spending 100+ dollars on flowers for the springtime...I have taken note that sometimes you can buy palms at home depot or lowes for the cheap in late winter or springtime. I suppose in their thinking is the palms would be used for an office space or house but why not try another use and use the plant as an annual palm? If you can get 10 or 15 palms and give your yard a tropical look for the summer for 100-200 bucks I say it's worth it! If you live in a marginal area you can always try piling a bunch of mulch or other protection scheme and see if they make it til the following year. It's all fun in pushing the zone gardening limits... (:
Randy4ut
02-03-2010, 08:50 PM
'Nough said, agree!?!?!?! BTW, would love to see a pic of the RI palmetto if and when you have time to post it.... I find this very intriguing!!!
jeffreyp
02-03-2010, 08:57 PM
I am not sure if he has any photos but I can look into it...I think even sabal minor if it is burnt back in a very hard winter will come back. If you want Randy, send me your mailing address and I can ship you some sabal palmetto seeds and get some starts going for the spring.
Hardy Palm and Subtropical Board: Sabal Frozenham - Update (http://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/msg/1265171904.html)
.
austinl01
02-03-2010, 09:00 PM
I agree with Randy. He and I live in Zones 7 and 8a, and we know what we're talking about regarding hardy palms. We've been growing them for over 6 years and have more than 6 years of research and experiments in our zone. Sabal minor and the needle palm are the only palms that will grow in St. Louis without major protection strategies. Being a palm lover, I am sorry to disappoint you with this news.
Randy4ut
02-03-2010, 09:03 PM
I am not sure if he has any photos but I can look into it...I think even sabal minor if it is burnt back in a very hard winter will come back. If you want Randy, send me your mailing address and I can ship you some sabal palmetto seeds and get some starts going for the spring.
Hardy Palm and Subtropical Board: Sabal Frozenham - Update (http://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/msg/1265171904.html)
.
I appreciate the offer, but I have several community pots loaded with Bald Head Island palmetto seedlings that are in their strap leaf stage. Small but coming along!!!!
jeffreyp
02-03-2010, 09:04 PM
You're welcome Randy...
Austin,
I lived in zone 6 (central connecticut..which I suspect is colder than Tennessee) for a significant number of years and have experimented with hardy palms and hardy tropicals as well as being involved with those growing hardy palms in the northeast...not speaking out of my rear...if you read my posts I am not saying you can plant a palmetto dug and shipped from south florida without some protection, but it can be done. I am suggesting growing them from seeds or small plants and see where it goes. I suspect a small plant with protection could do well and when it get's to a significant size some protection scheme could be implemented. There is a hardier version of sabal palmetto called sabal 'birmingham' that seems to do well in zone 7b,8a and this would never have come about if it was not for zone pushers...
Randy4ut
02-03-2010, 09:11 PM
You're welcome Randy...
Austin,
I lived in zone 6 (central connecticut..which I suspect is colder than Tennessee) for a significant number of years and have experimented with hardy palms and hardy tropicals as well as being involved with those growing hardy palms in the northeast...
I would love to see what palms you grew in central CT and pictures sure are worth a thousand words. Also, why did you link Shane's picture of a 'Birmingham' in NC when we have never mentioned the Birminghama and NC has never been mentioned in any of our conversations from what I can remember. Please, just post your pictures of the palmettos, or whatever palms you grew in CT, other than needles or minors that you did not have to provide MAJOR protection for them!!! I will be happy to post any pic you want of any palm I have tried here even if they did not make it, ie HC palmetto!
jeffreyp
02-03-2010, 09:17 PM
Randy,
I've grown sabal palmetto, small plants and with a couple leaf straps...why did I post the birmingham picture? Because I wanted to (: It's a variation of palmetto so it's totally in topic....I am sorry to say I don't have any photos as this is going back 11 years ago. I never really thought about maintaining pictures of them and now I am living in south florida so most tropicals are possibilities for me if I am so inclined. Whether you or whoever is reading this believes me or not it doesn't matter to me I am just stating my experience. I have seen the same thing as with my friend Joe in Rhode Island where they (sabal palmetto) do come back from the bud. Some other hardy tropicals that come to mind I have grown successfully are Acuba Japonica, bamboo (phyllostachys), musa basjoo, Passiflora incarnata, Mimosa (Albizia julibrissin), sabal minor, needle palms, southern mags, and poncirus trifoliata. Some zone pushers that did ok but ultimately failed in late february were citranges, citrumelos, chinese fan palms, loquats (did come back but severely damaged), very surprisingly smooth cayenne pineapples made it until late december, mission olive late february (no protection) but ultimately failed. It's been a while, and most likely the links referencing this have failed but there were some sabal palmettos in st. louis by some bridge near the river that survived for a number of years without protection....I do recall this but maybe someone with the time can scour the internet for links and corroboration regarding this.
Hardy Palm and Subtropical Board: Re: St. Louis sabal palmettos (http://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/msg/1265285461.html)
Randy4ut
02-04-2010, 09:36 AM
Randy,
I've grown sabal palmetto, small plants and with a couple leaf straps...why did I post the birmingham picture? Because I wanted to (: It's a variation of palmetto so it's totally in topic....I am sorry to say I don't have any photos as this is going back 11 years ago. I never really thought about maintaining pictures of them and now I am living in south florida so most tropicals are possibilities for me if I am so inclined. Whether you or whoever is reading this believes me or not it doesn't matter to me I am just stating my experience. I have seen the same thing as with my friend Joe in Rhode Island where they (sabal palmetto) do come back from the bud. Some other hardy tropicals that come to mind I have grown successfully are Acuba Japonica, bamboo (phyllostachys), musa basjoo, Passiflora incarnata, Mimosa (Albizia julibrissin), sabal minor, needle palms, southern mags, and poncirus trifoliata. Some zone pushers that did ok but ultimately failed in late february were citranges, citrumelos, chinese fan palms, loquats (did come back but severely damaged), very surprisingly smooth cayenne pineapples made it until late december, mission olive late february (no protection) but ultimately failed. It's been a while, and most likely the links referencing this have failed but there were some sabal palmettos in st. louis by some bridge near the river that survived for a number of years without protection....I do recall this but maybe someone with the time can scour the internet for links and corroboration regarding this.
Hardy Palm and Subtropical Board: Re: St. Louis sabal palmettos (http://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/msg/1265285461.html)
Thanks for the link, first off and I will be following it with interest! I did not mean to imply that I did not believe you, but would love to have seen pictures of them growing like you say in the central CT area. I wish you the best and look forward to hearing and seeing more of the palmettos in the St. Louis area as it is always great to have proof that a certain plant can be grown in a specific area that you normally would not expect it to!!! Thanks again...
Jack Daw
02-04-2010, 01:05 PM
...Rhode Island where they (sabal palmett0o) do come back from the bud.
I would think that so hardy palm would even retain most of its foliage on Rhode Island.
...Some zone pushers that did ok but ultimately failed in late february were citranges, citrumelos, chinese fan palms, loquats (did come back but severely damaged), very surprisingly smooth cayenne pineapples made it until late december, mission olive late february (no protection) but ultimately failed...
Very interesting. What was the problem with citrus hybrid zone pushers? Humidity, later frosts, sudden weather changes?
Also this olive mission seems very curious. I've heard about (and seen) several specimens here in Central Europe and they seemed to make it through the winter with little or no problems. By far the only problem growers encounter here is the high humidity in summer. Olives were always better off in drier climate.
It's been a while, and most likely the links referencing this have failed but there were some sabal palmettos in st. louis by some bridge near the river that survived for a number of years without protection....I do recall this but maybe someone with the time can scour the internet for links and corroboration regarding this.
Hardy Palm and Subtropical Board: Re: St. Louis sabal palmettos (http://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/msg/1265285461.html)
I too have heard about several specimens surviving even where Nannorrhopses and Rhapydophyllums had problems. Sabal palmetto are definitely palms I will be trying out once I get my hands on some seeds. Thanks for the link.
One last question: Have you been growing those hardy tropicals from seeds, or were those plants bought and planted out as older plants?
jeffreyp
02-04-2010, 02:56 PM
Hi Jack,
The state of Connecticut and Rhode Island are very cold places, and gets much colder and with longer durations of cold than most of Europe. It's probably closer (climate wise) to southern Finland, Estonia or the middle parts of Sweden. Citrus-poncirus hybrids - citranges and citrumelos were not protected and the bark cracked from the cold late february. Mission olive was small and defoliated and did not recover. The citranges/citrumelos were small 2 ft. tall plants planted in mid summer. The same size for the mission olive tree. Surprisingly the Loquat I planted did well until a severe cold blast in late February then defoliated. It did come back from about half way up the trunk so my guess is it would do better as a long term plant if it were tried on Long Island, New York, or in the heart of NYC (urban heat), or southern New Jersey. The sabals I had were started from seeds and some seedlings I brought home with me from a trip to south Florida. As a side note, i've seen Sabal Minor in New York and Rhode Island and there are needle palms in the brooklyn botanical garden in NYC. I suspect sabal palmetto would do well in most of Spain, Portugal, France, Greece and Italy.
Jeff
Jack Daw
02-04-2010, 03:30 PM
...I suspect sabal palmetto would do well in most of Spain, Portugal, France, Greece and Italy...
Well, northern France is climatically slightly colder than what I experience here, so it might be worth a shot. Anyways, I have several samples from each kind of palm, so I will conduct many experiments. As for the citrus x poncirus hybrids, I will be trying those plants this year too. Several different types grafted on poncirus (which grows here like weed once planted in the ground). I've also seen citrumelos and other various crosses growing in the gardens in the southern parts of my country, so these palms shouldn't have any bigger problems. Trachys, sabal minor, rhapydophyllums and other palms don't even need protection here, I even suspect that jubaea chilensis and butia x jubaea won't need protection either, but I can't confirm that right now. Already working on it, later this year (april, may...) I will plant out 1 jubaea and if they germinate this year also other jubaeas next year.
There will be some serious experimenting going on here soon, 'cause I convinced several of my neighbours to let me plant various palms in their gardens. :) I'm working on my private paradise. :bananas_b
BonoboJoe
02-04-2010, 03:49 PM
Experimenting with seed is always the most cost effective. It's always easier, yet slightly heartbreaking, to loss something that you spent $5.00 rather than a couple hundred. Also for most of us there tends to be a reputable nursery close by that enjoys testing the zone limits and will have some information about viability. Most of the nurseries around here have at least one person that has almost everything they sell planted in their yard. Also, for the most part, good nurseries don't like having disappointed customers, so they tend not to sell plants unless there's a good chance of it surviving. I've also seen nurseries sell some bananas and eucalyptus as annuals. Expectations tend not to be too high then.
Jack Daw
02-04-2010, 04:10 PM
Experimenting with seed is always the most cost effective. It's always easier, yet slightly heartbreaking, to loss something that you spent $5.00 rather than a couple hundred.
Growing plants from seeds has also other advantages. Young seedlings can adapt to weather and climate much better than juvenile or adult palms. True, juvenile and adult plants have several characteristics that make them superior to small seedlings, such as frost tolerance or hardiness, but young seedlings will adapt to rainfall, average length of vegetation growth, weather changes, high and low temps, something, that adult or juvenile plants are not capable of "learning". Once these seedlings reach mature form, they will be superior to any plant not grown in the precise microclimate or region.
It is this characteristic that makes seedlings from your area much more viable and superior to any plant imported from greenhouse or other culture. That's why I experiment always from seed, if there's a chance that those palms (or other plants) might grow here, by planting them and protecting/training for the first... say 3 to 4 years, they will develop characteristics unique to my climate and this process will likely not be needed in the next generation - offspring of those plants. And either will that be enough or the plant will simply die. I have only bad experience with growing older and adult palms in climate like mine. Erratic weather changes have killed many plants even at realtively high temperatures and humidity/moist soil has done more damage than any frosts. That's why I consider starting from seeds much more effective way. True, it doesn't cost much, but is very time consuming (factor, that not many people have! or are willing to sacrifice!).
That is also how palms with improved hardiness were cultivated not more than 200km from here. Original Trachys were grown there for decades and the first offspring was more than by 5°F more cold tolerant (Trachycarpus fortunei var. Szeged (http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/150415/))... TF var. Szeged is a perfect example. Not only is it more cold hardy than any other Trachy, but is also more drought tolerant and is not able to survive in too humid climates, which is not that big issue in case of normal trachy.
The wider the choice and the bigger the amount of seedlings, the better offspring will it have and the bigger chance that this offspring will be adapted even to extreme climatical weather, which would otherwise eliminate only "surviving exemplars", not the thriving ones.
jeffreyp
02-04-2010, 04:16 PM
that's what you call survival of the fittest.
TommyMacLuckie
02-13-2010, 01:47 PM
Keep in mind the palms that are being discussed are not tropicals.
Be very careful though in regards of what the minimum temperature is for hardiness versus...how cold it gets for duration in your area. For example, you might think having a Washingtonia filifera - California (18F) or a W. robusta - Mexican (15F) fan palm is OK - but not if it gets down to 18 or less degrees for more than 2 or 3 hours yet alone for a few days. Because where they come from it can get that cold - but not for that long. And if you have a Skyduster (Mexican) and it gets down to 18F and the literature says 15F do not think it's not going to die - it still could. Especially if it's 18F for 12 hours or more and for more than 1 day.
And based on these past 2 months alone I would not consider planting most of the palms I talk about in this post up there. If any at all actually.
Supposedly the minimum temperature is the temperature that death occurs. And the idea for dealing with that minimum is for a brief amount of time, not a duration. For how long they can survive at or below that minimum number, if at all, is another question but based on my experience of landscaping in Louisiana for a long time and the people I have worked with and talk to, the minimum temperature listed for any plant is when suggested death occurs.
But that's not always true ie doesn't always happen. So it's more of a safety guide - don't invest in this plant if you live where it commonly gets below X degrees. So who knows.
Where I live, in Old Mandeville, LA, no matter the height, all of the Washingtonias (both kinds) are zapped. That's because we got down to 20F inland and down to 18F by the lake (which goes against many theories people have here about living by the lake means you're always warmer - not so).
Are they dead? Based on all that I know they are not, they are just damaged. But how cold was it at 40 feet off the ground? Pretty damn cold to burn every frond. It may have been colder. It may have been warmer. I really won't know until March or April probably.
Washingtonia's will not work in Tennessee (or St Louis or Michigan for that matter) because it's too cold. And the ground freezes. That right there is enough to kill them unless you have a way to heat the ground. Unless you can afford to build something equivalent to the Superdome only with a retractable roof over your yard, it's just not a good idea. It gets below 15 degrees there more than a few times a year. If you were to cover them up entirely for years as they were able, if they were, to grow tall, what are you going to do when they get up to 50 feet? I highly doubt they would ever get above 20 really. But what would you do? That can be a problem.
Windmills are probably the hardiest palm you'll find that gets height to it. They can take down to 5 F or less. For how long is another issue. With these recent cold blasts and temperatures hovering low for days on end, that minimum temperature might be moot. That minimum temperature is generally based on the idea that it will most likely only tolerate that for an hour or two. Hours and days on end, however, most likely won't work and it and just about anything else of that nature will most likely die.
Sabal palmetto (Cabbage) and Sabal minor are tough and hardy but still I've never seen anything that says they can survive below 20F. Yet they (I don't know for fact how many but they along with some Phoenix Canaries) survived the 1989 freezes where it got down to 7F in Mandeville and 11F in New Orleans. Minors, which are native to Louisiana (3 kinds of palms are native to Louisiana that I am aware of - Sabal minor - which seemingly has a variation as well called Sabal minor 'Louisiana' that has much bigger fronds than Sabal minor, Serenoa repens and Rhapidophyllum hystrix), are more cold hardy. Sabal Palmetto/Cabbage are not native and supposedly are only hardy to 20F. They obviously can take far below that because I've seen Sabal minors planted in New York City. In the middle of a road in a concrete container. Sabal 'Riverside' is supposedly hardier, into the mid teens.
Saw Palmeto (Serenoa repens) are native to Louisiana but I've seen them slightly damaged from this recent blast we had in the 20s and teens (they are also happy to grow back after being burned in forest fires). Literature I've read over the years has them listed hardy down to 10F.
Pindos are very cold hardy, down into the low teens. Braheas are hardy to the mid teens. Mediterranean fan palms are very very cold hardy, down to the single digits. Needle palm supposedly is hardy to even ZERO degrees.
Overall, I lost some palms this January. I had some Ravenea rivularis planted (and covered) and they all died. All of the huge mature Majesties on the Southshore in New Orleans and Metairie are dead. It got down to 23 in the city and surrounding areas and Ravenea can only take down to 28 or a little less maybe degrees.
And they were gorgeous. Some up to 20 feet tall. All dead.
I've also got Rhapis excelsa that got burned but are not fried totally. Literature on them is the very low 20s. One of them was where it got down to 18 and so far, aside from what got burned, the rest of it is still green.
So the literature is not always right. But like I said, it's more of a suggestion than a fact - if it gets this cold or less, do not plant this plant in your yard.
Afterall, palms are not native to Tennessee. There are palms that are native to Texas, Louisiana, Missisippi, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, South and North Carolina and California to my knowledge and no where else. And of course, these native palms as well as imported palms can be grown in other states.
But you're working against nature in that aspect. Just as I have experimented with various types of palms where I live, which is more 8B than 9A - especially this year, I gambled and lost some of what I've been growing - and I had one really nice Chamaedorea costaricana that is, from what I can tell, totally gone. And literature on them says 25F. Where I have it planted it has seemingly, these past few years, never gotten below 28 degrees (I have a Philodendron Selloum a few feet away and they get damaged at 26 from what I can tell). Because it's the South facing side of the house under a huge Live oak. It will be 26 in the back yard and 30 in the front yard. So I took a chance planting some somewhat hardy palms and ZAP. They finally got got.
Because it got below 26 and below 24 - it got down to 21. And that just about fried everything. My bananas were frozen solid.
I don't know anyone in Mandeville that has a Mule palm. I know someone that does have one in New Orleans East. That's it! ONE person!
I hope this helps. I'd just be very careful about what I invest in up there. Global warming is not what it sounds like, it's more along the lines of Climate Enhancement (think Viagra for way over 4 hours). And el nino is proving to be really bad this winter.
And don't bother with any Cycads outside. The Revolutas all got fried here.
austinl01
02-13-2010, 04:54 PM
Afterall, palms are not native to Tennessee. There are palms that are native to Texas, Louisiana, Missisippi, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, South and North Carolina and California to my knowledge and no where else.
Add Arkansas to the list too. We have the native Sabal minor here.
Randy4ut
02-13-2010, 08:57 PM
Mr. McLuckie, I will have to agree with much of what you say, but do not believe that just because a plant is not native to a certain area, they will not survive and should not be tried. If that were the case, very few plants would ever make on the market. I honestly believe that needles and minors are pretty rock solid for TN, and I know growing Trachys is pushing it, but hey, like I said, if I strictly grew plants that are native to TN, what would be the fun of it? I am positive you grow many plants in your yard that are NOT native to LA, correct? So, with this said, I feel the gentleman that originally posted this question in St. Louis, would have very good luck with the plants that I originally suggested, needles, minors, and POSSIBLY a Trachy if he is willing to provide some protection starting out. BTW, I wonder if the gentleman that posed this question in the first place has even checked back to see what suggestions we have even offered him. Would be nice to know he was reading the advice he solicitated!
jeffreyp
02-13-2010, 10:21 PM
probably not (;
Abnshrek
02-13-2010, 10:27 PM
probably not (;
I second that motion! Any advice on the matter is really useless without knowing what kinda winterization measures he's looking/willing to employ, and makes all the difference. :^) if he ever reads it... lol
Jack Daw
02-14-2010, 05:00 AM
Would be nice to know he was reading the advice he soliciated!
If not him, then I got much information from this thread. Thanks to all.
BonoboJoe
02-15-2010, 09:39 AM
Regardless of whether or not this is being read by the originally poster, it's been fun reading about everyone's experiences. We have quite a few Mule Palms here and they didn't mind the last freeze. We were down to 22 degrees and dipped into the 20's for 6 days straight here in Houston. One day, the high was 32. In my 7 years here, the coldest it's been is 28 and that was a day that wound up in the 60's. Really atypical weather this year. As for damage, Macaw Palm (Aiphanes), Foxtail and Stilt Palm all probably gone, but we'll see, they were protect and had heat on them. Majesties, Fishtail and Flamethrower all severely damaged, but pushing new fronds. Pygmy Dates, coccothrinax and King Palm (Archontophoenix) hit pretty hard, but still a handful of green viable leaves on each trunk. Queens have slight browning, but are still happy and viable. Washingtonia, Bismarckia, Brahea, Copernicia, Canary Island and Senegal Dates, almost no damage. We are in a fairly protected site and I've seen more damage on most of the palms listed above in other locations, but we still hit 22, so...
Abnshrek
02-15-2010, 12:42 PM
[QUOTE=BonoboJoe;121813]Regardless of whether or not this is being read by the originally poster, it's been fun reading about everyone's experiences. We have quite a few Mule Palms here and they didn't mind the last freeze. We were down to 22 degrees and dipped into the 20's for 6 days straight here in Houston. QUOTE]
I can say I have wind burn on three Pindo's of 10. It's the newest set of leaves, and I'm sure that the 0F windchill helped heavily. I have no worries about the pindo's, them all being unprotected. I like uncomplicated stuff in my yard other than bananas; :^) they aren't really I just choose to make it that way. :^)
BonoboJoe
02-15-2010, 02:39 PM
Most years I haven't had to protect anything, so I understand the low care philosophy. Now we're going through, temps close to 70 and then down to 32 overnight. All of the nice tender growth is having a tough time.
Randy4ut
02-15-2010, 03:40 PM
Regardless of whether or not this is being read by the originally poster, it's been fun reading about everyone's experiences. We have quite a few Mule Palms here and they didn't mind the last freeze. We were down to 22 degrees and dipped into the 20's for 6 days straight here in Houston. One day, the high was 32. In my 7 years here, the coldest it's been is 28 and that was a day that wound up in the 60's. Really atypical weather this year. As for damage, Macaw Palm (Aiphanes), Foxtail and Stilt Palm all probably gone, but we'll see, they were protect and had heat on them. Majesties, Fishtail and Flamethrower all severely damaged, but pushing new fronds. Pygmy Dates, coccothrinax and King Palm (Archontophoenix) hit pretty hard, but still a handful of green viable leaves on each trunk. Queens have slight browning, but are still happy and viable. Washingtonia, Bismarckia, Brahea, Copernicia, Canary Island and Senegal Dates, almost no damage. We are in a fairly protected site and I've seen more damage on most of the palms listed above in other locations, but we still hit 22, so...
I did not realize you had all these growing at your place! Could you tell me a bit more about your brahea! I will be getting a B. decumbens this spring and will keep it potted for several years before I even think about setting it out in the ground and protecting it. It is a 5 gallon sized plant, but the cost will be the main factor for my lack of willingness to test it out in my area! A bit pricey, but since they are rare in cultivation, it is understandable!!! Please let me know what type of Brahea you have and all you can on it!!! Thanks...
TommyMacLuckie
02-15-2010, 03:44 PM
Oh certainly I have things that aren't from Louisiana growing here - but where they are from is a very similar environment to where I live. I have a lot of tropicals and a lot of sub-tropicals and, of course, plants that aren't tropical. Last year about half of my tropicals came back, the other half outright died. Quite a few of my bananas didn't come back - at all - which really surprised me. And they were Orinocos too.
That's what my point was. Which was really more towards the mindset of 'Don't be surprised if they don't live'. I do admire wanting to grow those plants there. It's just so cold for so long it's amazing to me that they can live.
As soon as I read that about Arkansas having Sabal minors I laughed. I totally forgot. And I have a friend from Arkansas who lives here now and he said that everybody loves the Sabals because when ya go hunting the deer walking through the palms make the fronds make noise...
BonoboJoe
02-15-2010, 04:36 PM
Randy,
We have Brahea armata and edulis. Most of each have been in the ground for around 3 years and other than hurricanes or kids pulling them over, have done fine. We planted 3-15 B. armata that were about 3' OA, that have all grown between 1 and 2 feet in those 3 years. There in almost full sun and seem to be growing a little faster this past year. They are irrigated, but this is a problematic zone that was off for the first 2 years they were planted, so they were hand watered 3 times a week during the summers. The edulis had similar treatment, with comparable results. We do spray compost tea 4 times a year, but other wise no intentional fertilization. Great blue color all around.
We did lose a really large armata specimen last summer, but I think that was a culmination of hurricane leading into a winter drought into continued low amounts of rain and a hundred degree temps starting in May. This one was about 30 feet tall and out in a flamingo exhibit, so I didn't have total access to analyze it, but it was well over 20 years old.
By the way I do have a list of the nearly 70 species of palms that we do have here. I can send that to you if you'd like. Most have been in the ground for at least a couple years, so I have some information for most.
TommyMacLuckie
02-17-2010, 12:56 PM
70 kinds of palms in Houston, TX? That are outside? From what you said it sounds like you're talking about a zoo. Literally.
I'm very curious as to what all there is there!
Bananaman88
02-17-2010, 01:42 PM
Joe, you're going to be known as the palm man on here soon! We need to get together in the next week or two so I can come and see how things are looking for you.
Randy4ut
02-17-2010, 02:46 PM
Randy,
We have Brahea armata and edulis. Most of each have been in the ground for around 3 years and other than hurricanes or kids pulling them over, have done fine. We planted 3-15 B. armata that were about 3' OA, that have all grown between 1 and 2 feet in those 3 years. There in almost full sun and seem to be growing a little faster this past year. They are irrigated, but this is a problematic zone that was off for the first 2 years they were planted, so they were hand watered 3 times a week during the summers. The edulis had similar treatment, with comparable results. We do spray compost tea 4 times a year, but other wise no intentional fertilization. Great blue color all around.
We did lose a really large armata specimen last summer, but I think that was a culmination of hurricane leading into a winter drought into continued low amounts of rain and a hundred degree temps starting in May. This one was about 30 feet tall and out in a flamingo exhibit, so I didn't have total access to analyze it, but it was well over 20 years old.
By the way I do have a list of the nearly 70 species of palms that we do have here. I can send that to you if you'd like. Most have been in the ground for at least a couple years, so I have some information for most.
I would love to see the list of palms you have!!! I am sure I will be asking you lots of questions about many of them in the future, so you may have wished you hadn't offered!!! LOL Thanks for the info on the Braheas. Any time you have an opportunity to post pictures of your palms, please make me aware so I can view them. My first love was with cold hardy palms, but after realizing how relatively slow to mature, I had to find other tropical looking plants to appease my addiction and bananas were the next on my list!!! Followed by aroids, brugmansias, hardy hibiscus,......and the list continues to grow...
Thanks again for all the info and look forward to seeing your list!
BonoboJoe
02-17-2010, 03:05 PM
With this group I don't think I could possible be the palm guy. I just happen to live in Houston and work at a zoo, so it behooves me to plant the most interesting stuff possible. I also have a few really good resources between local nurseries, fellow Houstonian horticulturists and the Association of Zoological Horticulture. I'm looking at some harshed out plants at the moment, but I'm really optimistic. I'll look into the best means of getting my list to you all. Thanks.
TommyMacLuckie
02-19-2010, 11:18 AM
At the Audubon Zoo in New Orleans the list of palms is rather short actually. I find it kind of bizarre that there aren't more. There are hardly any banana plants too as far as diversity goes.
Perhaps the most bizarre palms are some, from what I can tell anyway, Australian fan palms (Livistona australis) that have grown way way way up in the canopy of the live oak they are planted under. They're so tall it's impossible to tell what they are exactly - tall as in Washingtonia kind of tall but the wrong kind of trunk. And based on how tall Australis get I'm guessing it is those.
The rest are Medjool, Carnariensis, Roeb, Bismarckia, Butia, Med Fan, Windmill, Livistona chinesis, various Sabals, Caryota gigas or urens - I'm not sure; the trunks are rather black. And Washingtonia filfera and some robusta that are as tall as any in South Florida I've ever seen - they survived Katrina just fine (winds for Katrina in New Orleans were at the highest category 1, maybe weak category 2). I honestly can't recall seeing any Queen palms! I would think there are some. They're all over New Orleans.
From what I can recall that's it. There might be one or two other kinds of Phoenix but I don't remember seeing any. The might have some various Chams in pots but in the ground, that's the list. There are a lot more palms that can live here in SE Louisiana. It's amazing that there aren't more.
Bananaman88
02-19-2010, 01:18 PM
Joe,
"Harshed out"! I love that term! I first heard your former boss say that a few years ago and thought it was hilarious!
I should have some pups for you once it warms up a bit more.
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