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Gabe15
10-04-2006, 11:48 PM
Just curious and thought others might want to share too.

In the past I have had....
Musa velutina
Musa sikkimensis
Musa cheesmani
Ensete sp. 'Thai superbum'
Unknown Musa from Bhutan

and recently....
More Musa velutina
Musa balbisiana
Unknown Musa from Papua New Guinea (probly M. ingens variety)

I have tried hundreds of seeds and probly around 30 species at least, and of all those only a handful ever germinated for me (im sure thats a common theme for many of us!)

mrbungalow
10-05-2006, 12:40 AM
Everything except that darn Musa Ingens! Some of the easier ones have been the hybrids, as well as sikkimensis, balbisiana, velutina, and ornata.

The more difficult ones have been Musa Acuminata, Musa Itinerans, and Ensete Superbum.

I have had batches of seeds that have been impossible to geminate. I ordered 200 seeds of ensete ventricosum once, and planted 50. Not a single one germinated. A year later I planted the rest, just to get rid of them. Almost everything germinated, EXACT same procedure and materials. Who knows what's going on in that little seed...

My best tip would be to use hygienic soil but not pure perlite or vermiculite. And also keep the soil kind of wet. Don't worry, it will take a LONG time before any banana seeds rot. If it's too dry, germination will be slow and sporadic. And offcourse, without fluctuating temps, there is no chance!!

grammie
10-05-2006, 07:12 AM
you mentioned it takes a long time for them to rot. Will they get soft if they are? I have some ensete left that I planted in the spring and set out. They never dried out and they are still rock hard.

mrbungalow
10-05-2006, 07:48 AM
you mentioned it takes a long time for them to rot. Will they get soft if they are? I have some ensete left that I planted in the spring and set out. They never dried out and they are still rock hard.

The seeds will stay hard for probably decades. The part that rots is the fleshy "eye" on the seed. It's often hard to see if a seed is rotten, but usually there will be a hole or worms in the "eye" of the seed. If in doubt, take a sniff. If it smells like the breath of your algebra-teacher, you can be sure they are no good!

Erlend

rane
10-05-2006, 12:07 PM
Ensete glaucum
Musa acuminata
Musa ornata
Musa velutina
Musa balbisiana

Of those the velutinas vere pretty easy, about 50% germination rate in a few weeks and the balbisianas super easy, every single one of them germinated in less than 2 weeks ! (some of them died later though) I've also tried some Musa sikkimensis but so far failed miserably.

jeffreyp
10-05-2006, 12:16 PM
I think the best hope to get musa ingens in cultivation is through tissue culture. Ideally, if one could get a couple corms out of papua new guinea and delivered to a tissue culture lab, that would be the way to go. I am amazed at the beauty of that plant.

MediaHound
10-05-2006, 12:46 PM
Velutina and currently working on Sikkimensis 'Manipur' (and more Velutina)

mrbungalow
10-05-2006, 01:37 PM
This is how I solve the problem of musa-sprouting, with pictures.

The equipment I use: Reptile heating mat, el. timer, and plastic boxes with lids. I place the setup in a cold room, in my case our bedroom. I keep it on for 10 hrs and off for 14 hrs. This means 10 hrs of 25-30 degrees C and 14 hrs. of 13-18 degrees C.
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5714/pict0053pd3.jpg
In a matter of 1 week to 3 months, most seeds should sprout. I am so excited, that I check atleast 3 times a week for white roots. In this case, musa sikkimensis has sprouted well.
http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/474/spirercz3.jpg
I pot them up immediately, after I see some roots & shoots. I use drinking cups, with holes made in the bottom for drainage. The soil should be well draining. I use cactus soil with perlite. This means frequent watering!
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/33/seedlingsqs9.jpg
The seedlings grow extremely slow the first month, I have found good light conditions and movement of air is beneficial to reduce the problem of "damping off". This has never really been a big issue here, but it does occur.
After 3 months of good growth with fertilizer, sunlight, and watering my musa helen looks like this.
http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/1218/2mnthus1.jpg

Best of luck to everyone who wants to grow from seed!

Erlend

Zac in NC
10-05-2006, 03:37 PM
I* have 4 Musa thomsonii seedligns from a germination event back in June. The largest have 14 inches of pseudostem now and abotu 14 by 5 inch leaves. Sorry I told you wrong the other day Gabe.:bananajoy:

Zac

bigdog
10-05-2006, 06:09 PM
I've been having much better luck with Musa seeds this past year. I've been able to germinate a lot more Musa since I first made this post (this is an edit).

Musa velutina
M. 'Helen's Hybrid' (1 out of 80).

Musa that I've had no luck with include:

M. sikkimensis 'Red Tiger' (100 seeds)
M. ingens (150 seeds!)

Ensete are a different story. No problems with:

Ensete glaucum
Ensete ventricosum

No luck with Ensete 'Kluay Pa' or Ensete perrieri.

Got a bunch more I'm trying now, in addition to the ones above, including:

M. nagensium
M. siamensis
M. yunnanensis
M. sp. 'Violett'
M. itinerans (form India)
M. formosana
M. balbisiana 1 ***NEUE ART***
M. sikkimensis (from banana-tree.com)

I think the key is to get a large quantity, as germination is pretty erratic and percentages are low (for me).

As of today (03-09-07), I can add
Musa balbisiana 'Neue Art' (14/20)
Musa itinerans 'India Form' from sunshine-seeds (3/20).

04-04-07:
Musa x sikkimensis 'Daj Giant' from seedman.com (1/10).

05-03-07:
Musa formosana from sunshine-seeds.com (3/20).

06-19-07:
Ensete superbum (4/100).
Musa ornata 'Orange Flower' (from rarepalmseeds.com)(2/100).

08-11-07
Musa sikkimensis (1/50).

02-16-08
Musa aurantiaca (1/50).
Ensete superbum (1/20).

March '08 - Musa nagensium (6/25)

July '08 - Musa banksii (70!)

August '08 - Ensete gilletii (5/95)

August '08 - Ensete superbum ssp. Thailand (2/60)

Gabe15
10-06-2006, 12:07 AM
Here is a list of seeds ive tried (that I can remember) and sprouted if noted.

Musa monticola
Musa violascens
Musa gracilis
Musa ingens
Musa lawitiensis
Musa campestris var. lawasensis
Musa campestris var. limbangensis
Musa rubinea
Musa cheesmani (sprouted)
Musa sikkimensis (sprouted)
Musa yunnanensis
Musa thomsonii
Musa itinerans var. xishuangbannaensis
Musa nagensium x
Musa beccarii
Musa textilis
Musa velutina (sprouted)
Musa laterita
Musa balbisiana (sprouted)
Musa ingens var.??? (sprouted)
Musa 'New Bhutan'
Musa 'Royal Purple'
Ensete 'Thai superbum' (sprouted)
Ensete ventricosum
Ensete glaucum
Ensete superbum (sprouted)
Ensete perrierii


more seeds I will soon be trying are...

Musa beccarii var. hottana
different Musa balbisiana varieties
different Musa yunnanensis varieties
Musa nagensium
Musa balbisiana x velutina


The best success for me has been just planting seeds in moist sphagnum and putting them in a warm, well lit place. Without even soaking the seeds, I got 100% M. balbisiana germination, 100% M. velutina germination, and so far 50% M. ingens 'unknown variety thing' germination.

mrbungalow
10-06-2006, 01:27 PM
50% M. ingens 'unknown variety thing' germination.

Are your seeds from Trebrown? The "Papua new guinea unknown variety"? These are most likely NOT musa ingens at all. I will quate what Phil (The owner) had to say about these seeds:

I first got some of these a couple of months ago. It was the guy I sent to collect the M. ingens who found it. The germination test on the first seeds was excellent, and I asked him to get me some pictures. Well he didn't get me any pictures, but he sent me more seeds. His description is also vague. The fruit is not edible and I think the fruit is possibly schizocarpic (the fruit splits when ripe). There are only a few known species in the area that it could possibly be. Those are:




Musa maclayi subsp. Ailuluai
Musa maclayi subsp. Maclayi
Musa schizocarpa

But there maybe many many unknown species in that area. The area is very high, and these will be amongst the hardiest Papua New Guinea bananas.

Erlend

Gabe15
10-06-2006, 03:51 PM
Erlend,
No, I did not get them from Trebrown, I got them from Christian Port about a year ago, I suppose they could be the same seeds, I don't know if they are the same original source, but the description of these were along the lines of "similar in size and appearence to M. ingens with some differences, perhaps a subspecies". It is well known that there are different varieties of M. ingens that have not been studied. However, I have already arranged for a DNA test when they are large enough to collect a sample from.

mrbungalow
10-06-2006, 04:27 PM
Gabe, you are definately the nr. 1 expert when it comes to musa species. If you got them from Christian Port, they are most likely something atleast in the neighborhodd of musa ingens. He is from what I understand, very passionate about musa ingens! So please tell us, what did you do to make them sprout????

Tropicallvr
10-06-2006, 05:23 PM
Quantity really helps for getting at least a couple to sprout, but then sometimes you end up with too many if it is an easy sprouter.
My easiest fresh or old seed have got to be Musa cheesmanii first(just germinated some really old stored ones), as well as M.nagesium(one that have same seed shape/look as cheesmanii) followed by Musa acuminata types, then Musa balbisiana, Musa paradisica types, Ensete ventricosum, E.glaucum, E.superbum (India).
Just sprouted some Musa sikkimensisX paradisica(one had three shoots), Musa sikkimensisX Naj Giant, Musa sp 'Violet', and all the M.Cheesmanii that I sowed.
Just changed my sprouting method from baggie to a setup like Erlands, except I'm leaving the top off, and have a fine screen mesh over the top to keep out those pesky black gnats that lay teeny clear worms in the soil, and eat the insides of the seeds. Also changed the medium(which seems alot better) from peat moss/perlite to Coco coir/perlite. Seems to be working great. Good luck all!

griphuz
10-07-2006, 04:23 AM
So far:

Ensete ventricosum (no problem, but some batches just won't go)
Ensete superbum (easy! sprouts like weed)
Ensete sp. (Thai) (nothing)
Ensete perrierii (nothing)
Ensete glaucum (poorly)

Musa sikkimensis (poorly)
Musa velutina (very fluctiating, but overall not good)
Musa cheesmani (nothing)
Musa ornata (nothing, but old seeds)
Musa itinerans (nothing)
Musa thompsonii (nothing)

My next problem is to get small plants of Ensete superbum and E. ventricosum through the winter, they are about 50 -60 cm high (planthight) now,...how do I do that? Warm and light, or just cold (5 deg) and dry like big ones?

Tropicallvr
10-07-2006, 04:42 PM
So far sprouted-
E.ventricosum(really easy)
E.glaucum(easy)
E.superbum India, (really easy)
E.superbum(tough) 1 out of 100 seeds, but had temps too high and cooked most of the seeds.
E.klauy pa(tough) 2 out of 10 and it took a year

Musellea lasiocarpa(tough) put in fridge for 2 months then had 1 of 100

Musa paradisica(bananatree.com) easy, beutiful dark leaved waxy plant, not hardy but grows quickly from rhimozomes in spring.
Musa balbisiana(sunshine seeds) easy, but seems to be a dwarf
Musa balbisiana1(sunshine seeds) easy 10 of 10, really fast
Musa acuminata(bananatree) really easy about 80 of 100 killed most off but tested survivors in cold greenhouse, and all survived as very small 5 leafed seedlings with heavy spider mites, and cold unlike many other including larger raji puri(may have been due to mites)
Musa cheesmanii(super easy) nearly 100%
Musa nagesium( super easy) 80%
Musa formosiana 10 of 100,within the first month
Musa Bhutan easy 30 out of 60
Musa royal purple medium 4 out of 10(killed off all but one, that has black trunk)
Musa sikkimensis(bananatree.com) tough, but cooked due to high temps
Musa sikkimensis red flash medium, pressed against window in spring 2 of 10.
Musa sikkimensis' Helen hybrid' 1 of 10
Musa sikkimensisX paradisica 2 of 20 so far easy!
Musa sikkimensisX Naj giant 1 of 10 so far
Musa burmese blue 3 of 10 easy
Musa sp violet 1 of 30 so far
Musa xbananinsis(big flower) 4 of 20
Musa yellow forest 3 of 10 all died easyly
Musa initerans form india 1 of 100, and I killed it too.
Can't remember any more.

griphuz
10-07-2006, 06:20 PM
Can you see any difference between Musa cheesmani and M. nagensium yet?
Where did you get those seeds (since they are easy according to you).
And are they real white nagensium seeds or black nagensiun x seeds?

wim
10-08-2006, 01:48 PM
In what medium do you guys sow in?

Tropicallvr, I'm surprised you went away from using peat moss in favor of coco peat. With all the tests I've done (not with banana seeds though) with coco peat, the germination rates were very high but later on all the seedlings died from damping off. I went back to using Sphagnum moss peat. It somehow slows the development of fungi/bacteria.

The tests I performed with adult plants (also no bananas) with coco peat gave the same good results as with using Shagnum moss peat.

Gabe15, is that living Sphanum moss that you're using or Sphagnum moss peat ?

Gabe15
10-08-2006, 04:54 PM
I use the whole stuff, not peat.

Tropicallvr
10-08-2006, 05:02 PM
Can you see any difference between Musa cheesmani and M. nagensium yet?
Where did you get those seeds (since they are easy according to you).
And are they real white nagensium seeds or black nagensiun x seeds?

Can't see any difference between 15 gallon Cheesmanii and 5 gallon Nagesium. The seeds were also identical. Bothe the plants look so different than other bananas at all stages, so the two species are either really closely related or the same seed is being sold with two different names.
The first batch of cheesmanii seeds was from RPS, and the second was from Ortanque(spelled wrong). The nagesium seeds were from sunshine Floir noir variety(if I remember correctly), and they were just black like cheesmanii. Even the other types they sell there are almost the same as floir noir, but they were older, and mine got bugs, and never sprouted.
I think Erland was right on one of his other threads about seedman having the real nagesium. The seed packs had larger smooth seeds, but there was also one bumpy flat seed in each packet, which if I'm not mistaken( the flatness) is a characteristic of the true form.

Tropicallvr
10-08-2006, 05:10 PM
In what medium do you guys sow in?

Tropicallvr, I'm surprised you went away from using peat moss in favor of coco peat. With all the tests I've done (not with banana seeds though) with coco peat, the germination rates were very high but later on all the seedlings died from damping off. I went back to using Sphagnum moss peat. It somehow slows the development of fungi/bacteria.

The tests I performed with adult plants (also no bananas) with coco peat gave the same good results as with using Shagnum moss peat.

Gabe15, is that living Sphanum moss that you're using or Sphagnum moss peat ?

I've heard the oppostite about damping off with palms, but using 2/3 perlite, 1/3 coco is supposed to work the best. The coco seems to hold water alot longer which is great for some stuff, but maybe not so great for keeping bananas from rotting in the winter, but I added alot of perlite.
It seems to be the best for keeping potted bananas from dring out in the summer, and it rehydrates better after drying out than spagnum.
I also noticed a little moldy growing on the surface, but the seedlings are popping up through it, then I repot into the window for some light.

tropicalkid
10-09-2006, 12:47 PM
Just curious and thought others might want to share too.

In the past I have had....
Musa velutina
Musa sikkimensis
Musa cheesmani
Ensete sp. 'Thai superbum'
Unknown Musa from Bhutan

and recently....
More Musa velutina
Musa balbisiana
Unknown Musa from Papua New Guinea (probly M. ingens variety)

I have tried hundreds of seeds and probly around 30 species at least, and of all those only a handful ever germinated for me (im sure thats a common theme for many of us!)

Did you get the ingens to sprout???!!!???. Wow that's great!!!:07:
Now the other part will be wondering how to make it hang in there until it produces pups or can be TC'd.

Carlos

tropicalkid
10-09-2006, 12:51 PM
[QUOTE If it smells like the breath of your algebra-teacher, you can be sure they are no good!

Erlend[/QUOTE]

You made me laugh real good today Erlend:nanadrink:

Gard
10-26-2006, 08:34 AM
All these (yes, all these) have germinated for me yet:

Ensete ventricosum

Pretty many, huh?

The first three species I got and sowed, was sowed in only moist vermiculite, but those three first ones have not went quite good, it smells like Erlend said, like the breath of your algebra teacher... :0493:

Now I mix about 2/4 soil, 1/4 sand and 1/4 vermiculite, and I've added a little perlite. Seems to be a nice mix for me, at least the Ensete ventricosum liked it! :2748:

Gard

barna
10-26-2006, 05:57 PM
The banana seeds I sprouted are: :2559:
Ensete glaucum
Musa balbisiana (Sunshine)
Musa cheesmani
Musa 'PNG Highland'
Musa itinerans 'Indian form'
Musa laterita
Musa nagensium (pure??)
Musa nagensium X "Florale Noir"
Musa rubinea
Musa 'New Bhutan'
Musa velutina
Musa yunnanensis

The ones I am trying to sprout (I have my fingers crossed)

Musa flaviflora
Musa formosana
Musa ingens
Musa itinerans var. gigantea
Musa sikkimensis x paradisiaca
Musa sp. "Burmese Blue"
Musa sp. Nov.

:0491: and the ones I losed and had not sprouted:

Musa bacarra
Musa mannii
Musa siamensis "Thai Gold"
Musa thomsonii
Musa' New violet'

mrbungalow
11-05-2006, 07:23 AM
Anyone had any more luck with fluctuating temps?

Gard
11-05-2006, 10:13 AM
Anyone had any more luck with fluctuating temps?

Now I've germinated Musa sikkimensis and Musa x paradisiaca (which I believe, from the look of the seeds, to be Musa balbisiana) with fluctuating temperatures. The Ensete ventricosum just had room temperature.

Gard

STEELVIPER
11-08-2006, 11:03 PM
Mrbungalow, when you germinate your banana seeds, Do you use any kind of light? gro-lux bulbs etc....?? Was looking at the picture you posted on your germinating setup.:2738:

jmilligan1976
11-11-2006, 07:29 PM
I have had success with the Ensete's also and have really only been very lucky with the ornamental Musa's.
Most of the plants in my gallery were started from seeds.
For some reason I have many grow from seed and actually flower and "fruit" within the first year.

Tropicallvr
11-17-2006, 04:00 PM
whoops

Tropicallvr
11-17-2006, 04:03 PM
I have had success with the Ensete's also and have really only been very lucky with the ornamental Musa's.
Most of the plants in my gallery were started from seeds.
For some reason I have many grow from seed and actually flower and "fruit" within the first year.

I checked out your gallery and you have some really nice plants that you grew from seed. I especially like the "Paradisica". Do you remember what your seed source was for the paradisica. I grew a paradisica from seed from banana tree dot com and it is light green and really waxy without any red.
Thanks,
Kyle

mrbungalow
11-18-2006, 04:37 AM
Mrbungalow, when you germinate your banana seeds, Do you use any kind of light? gro-lux bulbs etc....?? Was looking at the picture you posted on your germinating setup

For germination, no light is needed. Just as Tropicalvr said, changes in temperature. When I see roots I transplant the seeds into individual drinking-cups with well-draining soil. I do use a grow-light after this because we have virtually no daylight after November 1 til mid February, but if you live in California, you could probably get away with a southern window or greenhouse, maybe even outside depending on location and species. (I am 60 degrees N, Steelviper is probably around 32 degrees N?)

For people in more northern areas, or people unable ot keep bananas near daylight, I would highly reccomend a high-power Na light fixture. They cost a bit, but they are worth it. The plants seem to grow properly and fast, and you never have to worry about overwintering smaller plants again. Those little water-droplets on the leaves at the end of the day tells me metabolism is taking place.

Erlend

chong
11-22-2006, 01:49 AM
when i got back from a fema assignment in mississippi last august, i was going thru some seeds i had and discovered some musa glauca seeds that i ordered before i left for florida in sept. 2004. i said what the heck, i'll see if they'll sprout. so, i scarified them, soaked them in warm water with cape seed germination primer pad for 24 hours, then sown them in a germination tray with heating mat underneath at 85degF. i really didn't expect anything, but to my glee, in 2.5 weeks 2 out of 8 seeds sprouted. still waiting for the other 4. 2 of them were afloat the whole time that i was soaking them, so there's probably no hope for them.

bananaman
11-22-2006, 05:14 AM
Hi all,
Really pleased to report that I have now got 3 seedlings out of 6 sown of Musa "Monkey Fingers".
A new one for me. Most of my plants are from seed and I do not have much trouble germinating them, just sow in peat based compost put pot in plastic bag sealed to keep in moisture and then on top of my central heating boiler. Then when I have a bath I know that my seeds are being warmed nicely.

My experience is that they do like the warm then warmer still type of treatment.

Still enjoy seeing them pop through the compost....knowing that I am starting them into life.

The main thing people MUST remember is that if you sow ten seeds and get 3 germinate you have done well....I always try to get one good variety plant from a packet of seeds.

Mustang
11-26-2006, 02:19 PM
Really pleased to report that I have now got 3 seedlings out of 6 sown of Musa "Monkey Fingers".

I've just ordered some more so will try again. I've also got the Cape Super Smoke kit to try out as well as Gibberellic acid and Potassium nitrate. Will use them separately on seeds from the same batch to see if there is any difference.

wim
11-26-2006, 04:27 PM
Chong,

What is "cape seed germination primer pad" ?

when i got back from a fema assignment in mississippi last august, i was going thru some seeds i had and discovered some musa glauca seeds that i ordered before i left for florida in sept. 2004. i said what the heck, i'll see if they'll sprout. so, i scarified them, soaked them in warm water with cape seed germination primer pad for 24 hours, then sown them in a germination tray with heating mat underneath at 85degF. i really didn't expect anything, but to my glee, in 2.5 weeks 2 out of 8 seeds sprouted. still waiting for the other 4. 2 of them were afloat the whole time that i was soaking them, so there's probably no hope for them.

STEELVIPER
11-26-2006, 04:43 PM
Here you go wim. :nanadrink:

http://www.seedman.com/cape.htm

mrbungalow
11-27-2006, 02:03 AM
From what I have heard, Gibberilic Acid can also do harm if you use it in wrong amounts. Plants can grow thin and weakly in strange directions and forms. When GA was first observed in rice-plants, the asians referred to it as "Foolish rice".
I don't know how it affects bananas though. And I am all for experimenting.

As far as I am concerned with growing musa from seed, a large amount of seed and fluctuating temps seem to be fine to produce many plants.

Erlend

Mustang
11-27-2006, 02:36 AM
From what I have heard, Gibberilic Acid can also do harm if you use it in wrong amounts.

I don't know how it affects bananas though. And I am all for experimenting.

That's how I see it Erlend ... the GA I've got is a tiny amount, just enough to play with it to see what happens. Thanks for the warning on getting the mix right though.

chong
11-27-2006, 03:37 AM
Hi WIM,
Sorry for the delay, I just got your post. Good thing, Mark's(Steelviper) on the ball though. The link he posted is the place I ordered my pads. The product comes from South Africa, so you might be able to get it from other sources in Europe, or even directly from South Africa.

I've had great success with these pads, particularly with older seeds that I have kept for over 2 years. Normally, if I drop several old seeds in a cup of water and drop to the bottom after a while, then there's a good chance that they're still viable. I then soak them for 24-72 hrs in the Cape Germination Primer. I had 5 miniature coconut palm seeds (not the cocos nociferous type) that were over 4 years old, and even those sprouted after 2 months.

Chong

Chong,

What is "cape seed germination primer pad" ?

chong
11-27-2006, 04:26 AM
From what I have heard, Gibberilic Acid can also do harm if you use it in wrong amounts. Plants can grow thin and weakly in strange directions and forms. When GA was first observed in rice-plants, the asians referred to it as "Foolish rice".
I don't know how it affects bananas though. And I am all for experimenting.

As far as I am concerned with growing musa from seed, a large amount of seed and fluctuating temps seem to be fine to produce many plants.

Erlend

Erlend and Helen,
I don't know if I missed something here because somehow the issue of GA followed WIM's question on what the Cape Seed Germination Primer Pad was. I have some experience with GA in regards to plants and seed germination and I agree with Erland's observations/comments. That being said, if you were of the impression though, that the Cape pad has GA, it does not. The pad is soaked in a water that has been "smoked" from burning fynbos plant materials. It appears that seeds from plants of the fynbos family has much higher germination rate when soaked in this smoked water. Fynbos family include Proteas, Erikas, etc. So, it's all natural, if not outright organic.

I ordered several packets(1/4 tsp. to 1/3 tsp ea.) of GA over 10 years ago. I opened 1 and used some of it to germinate some very difficult seeds, e.g. cananga odorata. These seeds can take up to 7 months to sprout, according to growers. Well, nothing sprouted of the canangas (maybe because it's just difficult, though I've had some luck with the Cape pad). But a few of the others plants did sprout. Since I just dipped the half of the tip of a Q-Tip into the GA for each soaking, I still have some left over in that 1st packet. The rest are still unopend. Goes to show just how cautious I am regarding the use of GA.

Chong

chong
11-27-2006, 04:45 AM
Oops! I'm so sorry, Erlend and Helen, for barging in, in re:GA. Indeed, I missed Helen's earlier post. I just went back the posts 1 by 1 and just now saw the earlier post. It's 1:35 AM here, and my eyes are not as good as they used to be to begin with.

Chong

mrbungalow
11-27-2006, 04:59 AM
The smoked water theory sounds interesting. Please keep us posted!

wim
11-27-2006, 08:27 AM
Chong,

Have you experimented and had good results only with palms or also with Musa?

I am a carnivorous plant hobbyist, and it's common to use this smoke water to get certain seeds to germinate. But normally it only applies to seed from plants that grow in places where there are periodic fires (South-Africa, Australia). Does that happen also in area's where bananas grow? I'd say it's too wet and humid in their natural areas to have those periodic fires. But I probably have a very unfunded and mainly romantic idea of the locations where bananas naturally grow...

I've had great success with these pads, particularly with older seeds that I have kept for over 2 years. Normally, if I drop several old seeds in a cup of water and drop to the bottom after a while, then there's a good chance that they're still viable. I then soak them for 24-72 hrs in the Cape Germination Primer. I had 5 miniature coconut palm seeds (not the cocos nociferous type) that were over 4 years old, and even those sprouted after 2 months.

chong
11-27-2006, 06:54 PM
Hi WIM,
I've used the Germination Primer on other seeds, e.g. psidium guajava(guava), cananga odorata, averrhoa bilimbi, various syzygium species, etc. With psidium and bilimbi, I had excellent results last year. 90% of the psidium and 100% of the bilimbi sprouted. Last month, together with some bilimbi and cananga, I tried the 2 year old seeds of the M. Glauca, some rollinia, some chili peppers. I've never sprouted cananga before, but this time after 25 days, 2 out of 72 sprouted. You might think that that's a low number. But considering that normally, this seed has a 40-45% germination rate, and can take up to seven months to sprout, I think I'm doing pretty well. Just have to wait another 6 months. (LOL) The Rollinia is not showing any signs yet. The M. Glauca, 2 out of 8 came up as I reported earlier. The chili peppers, 30 of 48 are coming up and 1 or 2 more coming up daily. On the same tray as the chili's, I sowed some "fresh" Cuban Scotch Bonnet chili's that were not soaked in the primer pad. The Cubans aren't showing any signs yet.

You are correct in your observation in the natural habitat of the fynbos genera and the banana habitat. But there must be a self-preservating ingredient (DNA, enzyme, or chemical) in the burned plant material that triggers the fynbos family seeds to come to life when the surviving seeds, after a forest fire, subsequently gets rain. I believe the governement of South Africa was the one that did a study that resulted in the discovery and development of the seed primer idea. The study was originally to determine how to increase the germination rate of the fynbos family seeds in order to prevent them from extinction. Those seeds, without smoke primer treatment, have very, very low germination rate - close to none.

As it turns out, the same ingredient(s) in the fynbos smoke also breaks down the dormancy in other types of hard to germinate seeds, esp. if they've been kept for a long time. This is apparently true for hard to germinate banana and palm seeds. I've read that they work for heliconia and ginger type seeds as well.

Here are a couple of links that might be useful:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/l4535q11q752r0w5/
http://finebushpeople.co.za/smoke_primer.html

I read several posts that "finebushpeople" are great to work with.

Hope this helps.

Chong


Chong,

Have you experimented and had good results only with palms or also with Musa?

I am a carnivorous plant hobbyist, and it's common to use this smoke water to get certain seeds to germinate. But normally it only applies to seed from plants that grow in places where there are periodic fires (South-Africa, Australia). Does that happen also in area's where bananas grow? I'd say it's too wet and humid in their natural areas to have those periodic fires. But I probably have a very unfunded and mainly romantic idea of the locations where bananas naturally grow...

mrbungalow
11-28-2006, 02:52 AM
Thankyou Chong for the links. I have now ordered from the Fine Bush People. I am looking forward to giving these smoke-mats a try!

Erlend

Mustang
11-28-2006, 03:06 AM
Hi Chong. I've ordered a small amount of GA from seedman as well as the cape smoke discs in their current sale. I'll set up a small test with some seeds soaked in water, some in GA and some in smoke water.

Then, use the 30C-8C temperature fluctuation approach to see what happens.

Thanks for the info on how the smoke water works. So I guess popping seeds into my home smoker with hickory chips won't work then? ;-)

How long does the smoke water last once it's been mixed? Should it be used once and quickly, or can it be re-used?

mrbungalow
11-28-2006, 04:24 AM
So this is what the band "Deep Purple" mean with their classic song "Smoke on the water"...!:2753:

MediaHound
11-28-2006, 11:42 AM
So this is what the band "Deep Purple" mean with their classic song "Smoke on the water"...!:2753:

http://finebushpeople.co.za/images/primerdisk3.jpg
Makes sense! :0494:

mrbungalow
11-28-2006, 11:51 AM
Does anyone know how you use these things? I am hoping dearly they come with instructions...:exercisenaner:

chong
11-28-2006, 04:29 PM
Hi Chong. I've ordered a small amount of GA from seedman as well as the cape smoke discs in their current sale. I'll set up a small test with some seeds soaked in water, some in GA and some in smoke water.

Then, use the 30C-8C temperature fluctuation approach to see what happens.

Thanks for the info on how the smoke water works. So I guess popping seeds into my home smoker with hickory chips won't work then? ;-)

How long does the smoke water last once it's been mixed? Should it be used once and quickly, or can it be re-used?
Hi Helen,
From what I've read in the Rare Palms website comments pages regarding banana seeds, and in particular the M. Glauca, most of the posts favor temperature flactuations, although a few just set them at temperatures from 75F(24C) to 85F(29C). On my Glauca seeds, the t-stat of the bottom heater is set at 85F(29C).

If you read the article on the link I listed earlier (http://www.springerlink.com/content/l4535q11q752r0w5/), you will note that they did not use smoke from fynbos plant material. They suggest use of any dry or green plant material. Although, smoking seeds with hickory chips may coat them with oil, and thus, slow down or prevent water absobtion, when you soak them. Or, you just might have "popped"-whatever-seeds you're smokin'.

In terms on how long I've used them, I'm cheap. I use them over and over, from one batch of seeds to another, until the solution can no longer hold any seeds, i.e., without adding any more water, all in the same period. All this is done immediately after preparing the soaking solution. Although I don't see why you can't keep the leftover solution for a while in a bottle with an air tight lid. Just shake it vigorously before opening the bottle the next time you use it. This will dissolve any volatile compounds that may have evaporated during storage.

Talk about cheap, I forgot about the supplier at http://finebushpeople.co.za/smoke_primer.html charges less than half what Seedman charges. Although you'd have to buy at least 2 of them to break even in the US due to postage. However, Seedman sells them only in quantities of five anyway.
================

Erlend,

They come with instructions. And I think Deep Purple was refering to smoke from a different plant, not even the "Manila hemp" (M. Abaca).

Regards,
Chong

STEELVIPER
12-01-2006, 01:39 AM
Hey guys/ and gals,

i received some Musa acuminata <Dwarf Cavendish> Seeds today. About 30. I'm going to give it a shot and try to germinate them. Any tips on getting these little guys to germinate? I've germinated ginger and Heliconia seeds before, so im no stranger to hard to germinate seeds. What about fluctuating temps with these guys? Thanks.:2747:

mark

mrbungalow
12-02-2006, 08:46 AM
Try fluctuating temps. Works for most species of banana. But for some reason, these are a bit harder for me to germinate than others. I have not gotten high percentages with this one.

Musa acuminata has no more to do with "dwarf cavendish" than for example "gran naine" or "Williams hybrid". Musa Acuminata is a species, not a cultivar. And musa acuminata is one of the "Ingredients" in edible cultivars.

Seed-vendours calling musa acuminata "dwarf cavendish" are therefore wrong.

Mustang
12-03-2006, 04:12 PM
Well, after a few days of fluctuating temperatures, my first ever banana germination is happening! :D

They are monkey fingers, and 4 of them appear to have white growths emanating from the seeds.

I think I may have cracked it at last.....

Gabe15
12-03-2006, 06:30 PM
Hi Mustang,
concratulations on the germinations! For reference, seed being sold as 'Monkey Fingers' is most likely Musa acuminata ssp. microcarpa, it is much better to use this name because it is scientifically correct and also there is a edible cultivar with the name 'Monkey Fingers' (also know as 'Pisang Jari Buaya', there are a few froms in the group) and it would be bad to get these 2 different plants confused. The edible variety is descended rather closely from the wild species you have, however keeping thier names seperate is a very good practice.

JoeS475
12-03-2006, 08:13 PM
Back to basics... sorry if this has been covered before:

I understand that all Musa Acuminata types are inedible, is that correct? So what is the scienific name for the Cavendish bananas? Are all Cavendish types edible? Is Cavendish not a cultivar of Acuminata? (Joe is reeeeaally lost today) I'm not sure even is Cavendish is a species or cultivar...

As you all certainly noticed I'm quite confused with what is being said in Erlend and Gabe's recent posts.

Again, my apologies if this is covered elsewhere,

~Joe :0493:

chong
12-03-2006, 09:13 PM
Here's a link that might be helpful, Joe.

http://www.plantnames.unimelb.edu.au/Sorting/Musa.html

When you get there, click "control F" and enter "cavendish" in the Find window.

Mustang
12-04-2006, 04:03 AM
You're right Chong. My musa acuminata ssp. microcarpa have germinated. :D

chong
12-04-2006, 06:35 PM
You're right Chong. My musa acuminata ssp. microcarpa have germinated. :D

WOW! CONGRATULATIONS HELEN! You see? . . . . "Patience is a Virtue!" (I guess, so is Hope? . . .LOL)

Mustang
12-04-2006, 07:13 PM
:woohoonaner:

garnetmoth
12-07-2006, 09:33 AM
Musa Velutina, first time.

theyre living in an old yogurt container, holes punched in bottom, with a 1-L bottle humidity dome, with the lid screwed off.

2 babies poking up last night, YAY!

monkeypickle
12-08-2006, 02:49 PM
I have not tried to germinate banana seeds, but I have germinated a very wide range of other seeds over the years. I have found that at the 1st sign of the little white mycelium cased by damp off fungi, if you will spray the surface of the soil and the bottom inch or so of the seedlings with 3 percent ydrogen peroxide, it kills the mycelium. but it doesn't harm the seedlings. I have treated thousands of seedlings in this way also just to prevent damp-off. It is very important not to keep your grow chamber too humid. If you see any or the mychorizia of scrophularium [damp off fungi] immediately, spray lightly with hydrogen peroxide mixed with a few drops of alcohol. then 'rough up' the surface of the media a little bit to help it to dry out a little at the surface. I use a toothpick for this operation. Be carefll not to till too deeply. 1 8th inch is usually quite sufficient. just kind of swirl the pick around in the surface. { any of you that grow fungi (edible mushrooms) can actually save a spawn batch by rinsing it with hydrogen peroxide 3 percent, then draining it. It will usually retard the growth of the invading bacteria or mycelium long enough for the good mycelia to outgrow the infection]Monkeypickles This remedy has not been tested by me on banana seedlings, but I don't see why it wouldn't work on them as well as on them as well as it does on seedling tomatoes, flowers, etc.

garnetmoth
12-09-2006, 09:37 AM
Hey Monkeypickle, that is some neat info, ill have to try it with a few babies.

I have had a history of getting things to start, then losing them to damping off. I take the dome off a few hours, and try to put the fan on an hour or 2 every other day to stimulate stout growth and dry the surface of the containers.

Im about to pot up 10's of citrus seeds, I might just treat some of them with H202 dliuted.....


:2123:

GAPEye
12-09-2006, 09:26 PM
Nice :2706:

monkeypickle
12-11-2006, 03:51 PM
to Garnetmouth; just today, whilr rambling through ebay looking for COLD HARDY bananas, i ran across a site where some English nana grower recommended to start banana seeds in vermiculite bags. She said to mix a weak fertilizer solution using hydrogen peroxide as the h2o component, then to squeeze out as much of the liquid as possible, fluff up the vermiculite and plant your seeds right into a small zip lock bag. put the bag in a well lighted, warm, but not sunny position. when the seeds start to germinate they can be pricked out easily. She said that it is nigh onto impossible to start banana seed unless it is in a sterile environment because dampoff organisms kill the embryo as soon as it emerges from the seedcoat. Be sure that the peroxide does not exceed 3 percent. I intend to try it out. I ordered some seeds of velutina to practice on. :)

GAPEye
12-11-2006, 03:56 PM
Monkey Pickle,

Keep us posted and let us know how that turns out! :nanarobot:

monkeypickle
12-11-2006, 04:18 PM
I will. I just sent off my order for 2 seeds today. This is what i intend to do. I will soak one of the seeds in hydrogen peroxide for 1 hour befoe planting it in vermiculite wetted with distilled water [sterile] mixed with a small amount of rapidgro; one seed in vermiculite wetted with distilled water mixed with hydrogen peroxide to = 3 percent soloution + a small amount of rapidgro [to support growth of tht hoped for seedling; one seed in vermiculite with no hydrogen peroxide but utilising distilled water and rapidgro; one seed in vermiculite wetted with tap water, and one seed in rapidgro planting medium, no hydrogen peroxide. Ill test for time required for germination, and whether or not seedlings develop damp off. I'll give you my resulus as soon as possible. :D

monkeypickle
12-11-2006, 04:21 PM
'scuse me! That is 5 seeds, not 2.lol

GAPEye
12-11-2006, 04:21 PM
Good Luck ! :0519:

STEELVIPER
12-23-2006, 04:40 PM
YES!!!!!!!! my Musa nagensium seeds are poking up! Bought 10 seeds from Ortanique. So far i have 4 sprouting as of today. I used mrbungalow's technique. Took 3 weeks.They only thing is that i keep the soil temps at 90F to 92F for 8 hours then at 80F for 4 hours. Then 70F at night.These are my first Musa seeds that i have ever tried to sprout.Ive always had good luck with Ensete seeds. Thanks guys for all the great info and advice.

mrbungalow
12-25-2006, 09:17 AM
Steelviper, I am glad the "bungalow-technique" worked out for you, although Tim Chapman who owned Gingerwoods Nursery in Louisiana deserves credit before me. He's the one who taught me about fluctuating temps! Too bad about hurricane Cathrina, I haven't heard from him since.

What exactly does ortaniques' nagensium-seeds look like? Smooth and large or irregular and whitish?

Erlend

STEELVIPER
12-25-2006, 11:21 AM
Mrbungalow,

The seeds that i got from ortaniques were i would say slightly smaller then a dime and very ruff or irregular. Most did have whitish coloring around the "eye" Some did not. But very ruff texture. Now i know that these may not be the "real" M.nagensium. They may be nagensium x or somthing of that matter. They guarantee their seed to be true to form,but what is a guarantee these days. So far i have 6 of 10 sprouting. I used a soil-less seed starting mixture with some fine sand added. I also did take them outside when the temps. were over 60F and put them in the sun.

banana_fun
12-27-2006, 05:55 PM
I'm waiting on 72 Sikkimensis seeds that I sowed december 5th. None of them have germinated using fluctuating temperatures on a heat mat. I placed 6 caster bean seeds (purchased from our good friend Taylor) in the seed flat and they germinated in 1 day. I do not think the seeds I purchased are viable. I cracked one of the seeds open and the inside was as dry as chalk. Do you think I should find another source for Sikkimensis seeds?

:07:

Taylor
12-27-2006, 06:58 PM
Hey! I am glad they came up so fast! Congrats!

Tropicallvr
12-28-2006, 07:14 PM
I'm waiting on 72 Sikkimensis seeds that I sowed december 5th. None of them have germinated using fluctuating temperatures on a heat mat. I placed 6 caster bean seeds (purchased from our good friend Taylor) in the seed flat and they germinated in 1 day. I do not think the seeds I purchased are viable. I cracked one of the seeds open and the inside was as dry as chalk. Do you think I should find another source for Sikkimensis seeds?

:07:

The white chalky substance is what you'll always find in musa and ensete seeds. I think your seeds are still good, and if you still have them spring maybe try sprouting them outside. Musa sikkimensis definatly are some of the toughest musa to germinate.

banana_fun
12-28-2006, 07:35 PM
The white chalky substance is what you'll always find in musa and ensete seeds. I think your seeds are still good, and if you still have them spring maybe try sprouting them outside. Musa sikkimensis definatly are some of the toughest musa to germinate.

Thanks for the reassurance Tropicallr. I will not give up on them until the end of January. I just found a source last night for Sikkimensis seeds that are fresh from India. I am waiting to get a price. The supplier said they have just been harvested so I am looking forward to recieving fresh seed from the source.

mrbungalow
12-30-2006, 06:18 PM
I will not give up on them until the end of January.

If I were you I would wait until the end of February, atleast. I have had seedlings pop up in numbers, after 3-4 months!

Erlend

mrbungalow
02-26-2007, 01:57 PM
OK, looking back at the smoke disks: I had 200 Musa Sikkimensis X "Darjeeling giant" seeds. 100 were laid in water for a week, the other 100 were left in water with a disk of "Smoky water" for a week.

I have also tested these smoke-disks on other species, palms etc. in a very non-scientific way.

Can't say I have seen much difference in germination results concerning bananas or other plants!

Erlend

bigdog
05-03-2007, 05:34 PM
Gabe, I've edited my original reply several times in the last couple of months (I love that feature!), because more seeds have sprouted for me! Recently, I've had:

Musa itinerans 'India Form' (3, 1 died)
Musa x sikkimensis 'Daj Giant' (1)
Musa formosana (1)

The M. formosana just came up today, alomst 3 1/2 months after sowing.

The M. itinerans 'India Form' look incredible, even as 5-leaf seedlings! The red midribs are becoming intense, and bleeding into the leaf just like the one in the pic on sunshine-seeds.com. If this one turns out to be as cold-hardy as I think it might be, it could easily replace M. basjoo as the most desireable banana to grow in cooler climates! Can't wait to see how it grows as it gets older.

jmoore
04-05-2010, 12:32 PM
Bump!

Wow thought this thread could do with an airing, looks good :goteam:

I've had success with:
M Formosana
M Balbisiana
M Sikkimensis
M Sikkimensis 'Manipur'
M Sikkimensis 'Daj Giant'
M Ornata
M Itinerans
M Velutina

and plenty of failures I can tell you.

I have to say the Mr Bungalow method works for me, especially with the nitrozyme. I've heard about scarifying the seeds first, but everytime I've tried the seed has gone mouldy or it's cracked in half.

We need to share more info about seed germination.

Caloosamusa
04-05-2010, 06:21 PM
Good evening James,

Thanks for the reawakening! Has your itinerans or formosana fruited for you yet? :2239:

jmoore
04-06-2010, 10:56 AM
No they are still quite small, although the formosana is pupping like crazy.

Here's hoping one day.

BB73
04-08-2010, 04:03 PM
I just have a small M. sikkimensis 'red tiger' that has successfully germinated two days ago. It took about 3 1/2 weeks since i planted the seeds.

sunfish
04-19-2010, 10:14 AM
Helen's hybrid

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=30981&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=30981&ppuser=2868)